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Xsizor

Captain
Registered Member
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Word is Indian Navy messed up this boat big time. The explosion that caused the return of the ship before the lease was up apparently seriously damaged both the inner and outer hull. Indian navy patched up the outer hull enough that it could sail back to Russia on the surface and hand the boat back and pretend nothing happened. But now Russia is demanding $1.5 billion USD in damage.
The Indian defence forum narrative is that on board electronics got damaged. There is no damage to Nuclear Reactor or the compartment ( which Indian navy has got no access to).

I'd like to know what exactly is the issue and how the damage happened. India's handling of nuclear subs recently isn't a good one.
 

siegecrossbow

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
The Indian defence forum narrative is that on board electronics got damaged. There is no damage to Nuclear Reactor or the compartment ( which Indian navy has got no access to).

I'd like to know what exactly is the issue and how the damage happened. India's handling of nuclear subs recently isn't a good one.

Now they really got me nervous. How do they know there is no damage if they don’t have access to the reactor? Did they take a Geiger reading or something?
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Now they really got me nervous. How do they know there is no damage if they don’t have access to the reactor? Did they take a Geiger reading or something?

Maybe they use the same detection devise they used to detect China's J20 over the Himalayas! Lol

But seriously, how come they can't access to a part of the submarine?
 

MarKoz81

New Member
Registered Member
If Indian national auditor is to be believed MiG-29K is the opposite of MiG-29 - from Wiki: "The serviceability of MiG-29K was reported ranging from 15.93% to 37.63% and that of MiG-29KUB ranging from 21.30% to 47.14%; with 40 engines (62%) being rejected/withdrawn from service due to design defects."

With 36 MiG-29Ks and 8 MiG-29KUBs in service that's 5 to 13 MiG-29Ks and 1 to 3 MiG-29KUBs. For two carriers in rotation there should be at least 24 aircraft ready at any time. Consequently the quality of pilots must be abysmal.

I don't know if these issues have been resolved but there must be a reason why the Su-33s are retained in the Northern Fleet despite MiG-29K being delivered. It can't be just a need for aircraft since Su-30s would be preferable. It must be the ability to land on deck. My guess is that you can't design a carrier-based aircraft without first learning how not to do it and, unfortunately for India, MiG-29K is that lesson.

If the above suspicion is correct then India has only a handful of aircraft which makes it impractical to waste money on a new and untested design (the Vishal-class) before sorting out the basic combat capability for the two aircraft carriers you already have. That requires buying Super Hornets or Rafales which will cost several billion dollars and won't arrive before 2025-26 at the earliest. By that time India might get sufficient number of air defense escorts but it won't have an SSN to screen the battlegroup from below.

If your carrier battlegroup travels at 21 knots or more you need an SSN for escort. AIP propulsion is incapable of sustaining such speeds.
 

plawolf

Brigadier
Actually they do, and this isn't even a very high-tech thing; it's simply doctrine-specific. India uses(or at least used) standard Soviet/Russian air combat(intercept) environments. It isn't something unique - NORAD was like this in the past; Sweden also had and has a broadly comparable system.

This "hands-off" ground-controlled intercept treats plane basically as a very large, reusable ARH missile, controlling it through the flight. GCI system includes, among other things, ground radar-cued aiming of fighter's intercept radar(through dedicated datalink), telling plane's radar when to switch on, where exactly to look, and even engaging the target.
This, in turn, allows for use of GCI-specific, concentrated, higher power search modes. And, consequently, allowed Soviet(Russian) fighters with their relatively lower-tech radars to remain highly competitive against often more advanced western planes within this friendly environment.

p.s. same reason behind current Russian love for very high emitting powers, btw.
Even such a rudimentary system may not actually be available or viable for the Bisons given their preference to stay at low altitudes to try to use ground clutter and terrain features to help further reduce their chances of being detected.

For soviet style ground controlled intercepts to work, the Bisons need to be flying high enough to have LOS to ground based transmitters, which means they need to fly higher and/or operate very close to ground based transmitters.
 

Xsizor

Captain
Registered Member
Maybe they use the same detection devise they used to detect China's J20 over the Himalayas! Lol

But seriously, how come they can't access to a part of the submarine?
Because Russia. India has one nuclear submarine (SSN) that was taken under lease from Russia for 10 years.

This is the second submarine India leases from Russia. Earlier, India had leased Charlie class submarine for a brief period under the same argument - "for India to learn the ways of an SSN".
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As I understand -
Nuclear technology is heavily guarded and barred by Non Proliferation Treaties. Technically, just like US transferred technology to other nations like UK and to lesser extend France, Russia could transfer technology to countries part of the NPT and nuclear already.

The issue is - India is not a part of NPT. I don't know why and there could be reasons which other members may be able to explain better. So, in short Russia can't transfer nuclear technology to non treaty nation like India. But lease is not mentioned explicitly in the treaty.

India is therefore, likely, to be barred from accessing the nuclear power plant and control panel.

( But are there Russian sailors in the Chakra SSN? I don't know).
 
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plawolf

Brigadier
Because Russia. India has one nuclear submarine (SSN) that was taken under lease from Russia for 10 years.

This is the second submarine India leases from Russia. Earlier, India had leased Charlie class submarine for a brief period under the same argument - "for India to learn the ways of an SSN".
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As I understand -
Nuclear technology is heavily guarded and barred by Non Proliferation Treaties. Technically, just like US transferred technology to other nations like UK and to lesser extend France, Russia could transfer technology to countries part of the NPT.

The issue is - India is not a part of NPT. I don't know why and there could be reasons which other members may be able to explain better. So, in short Russia can't transfer nuclear technology to non treaty nation like India. But lease is not mentioned explicitly in the treaty.

India is therefore, likely, to be barred from accessing the nuclear power plant and control panel.

( But are there Russian sailors in the Chakra SSN? I don't know).

Thank America and Bush 2 for that.

Basically America cut an India sized hole in the NPT so it can do business with India and try to make it a proper counter to China.

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