Hong-Kong Protests


crash8pilot

Junior Member
Registered Member
1st lesson in journalism, learn to read, or At least have some who can read. Instead of making assumptions. Lol
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emblem21

Junior Member
Registered Member
View attachment 69461

The sign held by the women says "Support the national security law":cool:
Lol, They are getting desperate. I hope they get to enjoy watching their democrazy get slowly be surely abandoned around the world because people are waking up to the fact that democracies based on western logic doesn’t work in the long run
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
Lol, They are getting desperate. I hope they get to enjoy watching their democrazy get slowly be surely abandoned around the world because people are waking up to the fact that democracies based on western logic doesn’t work in the long run
The guy posted an update to say he was being sarcastic.

He has some Chinese posts, so maybe he does understand? Whatever, not like his opinion matters.
 

SpicySichuan

Senior Member
Registered Member
The problem is there are no real "democrats".

First, you have to remember the basis of the "laam chau"/35-Plus plan. Both of these plans essentially call for direct confrontation with the central government in the hopes that they would be met with a violent response which would open the door for direct intervention by western forces ('peacekeeping' mission) or possibly indirect (arms supply).

Second, there was the famous interview by one of the student unions' president Joey Siu on DW where she proudly proclaimed that she was not a radical, but (self-described) moderates like herself will never "break ties or criticize" radicals. This was not an uncommon stance (at least on social media).

Finally, all the so-called "democratic" leadership, the joshua wongs, martin lees, etc. are all shaking hands and smiling with people like ted cruz, mike pigpeo, tom 'army ranger' KKKotton. They have all also received money from NED.

Even if we put aside the idea of American conspiracy. We can see how the whole ideas of "moderates" and "democracy" have been totally eroded into meaninglessness. If you are truly committed to being a moderate (and many of the self proclaimed democrats seem to conveniently neglect this point), then you have to condemn the violence. Very little of the violence was actually political in nature, most of it was juvenile attempts at score-settling/petty revenge against perceived grievances against mainlanders and HK supporters of PRC. I've repeatedly pointed out on this thread, there is nothing democratic about smashing up a Starbucks, Maxim's, or some other restaurants. If you are actually a moderate, you cannot pretend this is some sort of peaceful protest tactic.

Also, functional democracy requires compromise. The "pan-democrats" have repeatedly resisted any overtures from the central government as "not enough". One major proposed reform was universal election for Chief Executive, but the main compromise would be the candidates would need to go through a vetting process first. Obviously this is a way for the central government to stack the deck, but at the same time the other side should accept that the door was opened a crack. Imagine if Obama decided to kill ACA because it didn't go far enough, then what happens? You are just stuck with the same/worse system as before. This is what happens in HK.

So long-story short, I think the government made the simple conclusion that there are no moderates left to work with.
Well, Joey Siu IS as radical, even more so than Joshua Wong, who could already be considered a radical by calling for "self determination" back in 2014-2015. There is a even more radical dude you forgot to mention: Sixtus Baggio Leung (he reportedly stacked explosive before deciding to escape to the States). For U.S. politics, KKKotton is a classic Confederate white supremacists. His support for Hong Kong is instrumental at best in order to ensure that people like him (WASP pure blood) would remain on the very top of global racial food chain.

However, what I don't quite understand is the arrest of people like Claudia Mo, who is a legitimate lawmaker in Hong Kong. Martin Lee indeed has some connections in the West, but he never supported violence. Had Beijing been smart, CCP elites could have treated these moderate or classic HK liberals as a separate category from the radical youths mentioned above. This is because hard negotiations are possible with these classic moderate pan-democrats. When worst comes to shove, even if a classic pan-democrat were to be elected as the chief executive, there's only so much he or she can do to challenge Beijing. Ultimately, Hong Kong is already part of the PRC, so no matter how pan-democrat a chief executive were, there is a structural boundary preventing his or her overreach, especially with regards to PRC sovereignty. That is how you have autonomy for Hong Kong as guaranteed under the Basic Law, but Beijing remains the ultimate guardian of territorial sovereignty.
 

KenC

Junior Member
Registered Member
However, what I don't quite understand is the arrest of people like Claudia Mo, who is a legitimate lawmaker in Hong Kong. Martin Lee indeed has some connections in the West, but he never supported violence. Had Beijing been smart, CCP elites could have treated these moderate or classic HK liberals as a separate category from the radical youths mentioned above. This is because hard negotiations are possible with these classic moderate pan-democrats. When worst comes to shove, even if a classic pan-democrat were to be elected as the chief executive, there's only so much he or she can do to challenge Beijing. Ultimately, Hong Kong is already part of the PRC, so no matter how pan-democrat a chief executive were, there is a structural boundary preventing his or her overreach, especially with regards to PRC sovereignty. That is how you have autonomy for Hong Kong as guaranteed under the Basic Law, but Beijing remains the ultimate guardian of territorial sovereignty.

I guess it depends on what Beijing aims to achieve. After what happened in 2019/2020 , Beijing has enough of them and have decided these people no longer have any meaningful role to play in HK's future. The electoral system, legislative assembly, the civil service and other government bodies will be revamped to prevent being from exploited by anti-China elements. HK will become more integrated into Pearl river delta region while basically maintain its unique system within China.
The bridge has been burnt and appeasing the West on HK is no longer a feasible option.
 

KYli

Captain
Well, Joey Siu IS as radical, even more so than Joshua Wong, who could already be considered a radical by calling for "self determination" back in 2014-2015. There is a even more radical dude you forgot to mention: Sixtus Baggio Leung (he reportedly stacked explosive before deciding to escape to the States). For U.S. politics, KKKotton is a classic Confederate white supremacists. His support for Hong Kong is instrumental at best in order to ensure that people like him (WASP pure blood) would remain on the very top of global racial food chain.

However, what I don't quite understand is the arrest of people like Claudia Mo, who is a legitimate lawmaker in Hong Kong. Martin Lee indeed has some connections in the West, but he never supported violence. Had Beijing been smart, CCP elites could have treated these moderate or classic HK liberals as a separate category from the radical youths mentioned above. This is because hard negotiations are possible with these classic moderate pan-democrats. When worst comes to shove, even if a classic pan-democrat were to be elected as the chief executive, there's only so much he or she can do to challenge Beijing. Ultimately, Hong Kong is already part of the PRC, so no matter how pan-democrat a chief executive were, there is a structural boundary preventing his or her overreach, especially with regards to PRC sovereignty. That is how you have autonomy for Hong Kong as guaranteed under the Basic Law, but Beijing remains the ultimate guardian of territorial sovereignty.
What is a moderate? A moderate is someone who would speak up if things got out of hand or become too extreme.

Did Claudia Mo reject violence during the riots? The answer is clearly no. Did Claudia Mo join the protests and participate in the illegitimate primary? The answer is clearly yes.

Martin Lee and Jimmy Lai have been the mastermind behind these violence and riot and hatred. Just because Martin claimed he is against violence, doesn't make him a moderate. Martin is also responsible for rejecting the election reform in 2014-15 that set the stage for the current crisis.

China has already offered a grand bargaining in the 2014-15 election reform but those moderates reject the proposal. If you think China should offer a better deal, then you might as well ask China to grant Hong Kong independent. These moderates have many chances to stop the madness but they choose to allow things to get out of control and refuse to accept any overturns except a total capitulation of the Chinese government.

So you believe it is ok to allow these moderates to continue brainwashing these youngsters and seeding the hatred against mainland Chinese and China. Hong Kong was granted semi-autonomy not a total autonomy. Hong Kong is a special administration region of PRC. Hong Kong was given 50 years to mend the difference between mainland China and Hong Kong and eventually to become truly a part of PRC.

You are basically telling me that as long as Hong Kong is part of PRC in name only then everything else is fine. It seems the Chinese government disagree with you and decide to make sure Hong Kong wouldn't be used as anti-China staging ground again and the future generation of Hong Kong would learn to love their country instead of hate.
 

daifo

Junior Member
Registered Member
I guess the chain of event was arrested for NSL, released on bail shortly after , went into custody last sunday for trial, 15 qualified for bail while in trial (but recinded on appeal) and the other to remain in jail during the trial.

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The terms are pretty tough to be in jail during trial, I wonder does the gov think some of these people were instigators/leaders of the 2019 protests.
 

supersnoop

Junior Member
Registered Member
I am not an expert in HK politics to be honest, but just to add to the above.

Martin Lee represented a more radical faction in the past. He is only considered moderate now because he is an old man. He and Jimmy Lai attempted to paint the previous old man of the democratic movement Szeto Wah as a sell out as he was endorsing the compromise electoral reform in the past.

So basically the politics have become more polarized in the last 5-10 years and the “classic pan-democrats” you mentioned already rejected negotiations. What should CCP do in that case?

In my opinion, I agree that the central government is doing an awful job at selling itself and looks like a bully. However, in the big picture, they really took the action that they wanted to take. The fake-democrats were basically outplayed on every level minus international PR.
1. Anti extradition which would have been limited became full on NSL
2. HKPF restraint and discipline meant the whole Tiananmen LARPing failed. Really hats off to them. When the world is desperately trying to portray their use of tear gas as some kind mass violence, you know they really did something extraordinary.
3. By rejecting all overtures and failing with radical action just short of full-on armed insurrection, any opposition has lost all leverage.

Opposition put all their eggs in the political basket. If they truly had a plan to solve some of the ancillary issues (housing affordability for example), then they could have remained relevant. Pro-central government can point to success in SZ to show that working with mainland authorities is a necessity otherwise you risk falling behind. The opposition just complains with no concrete objectives.
 

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