Hong-Kong Protests

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
What has changed? Looks to me that the election is just an excuse on the protestors' part to stop their own violence while covering it up claiming victory. They weren't gaining strength. They were weakening. Hong Kong isn't going to get independence. They're celebrating an election result they said they were being denied and undermined. The status quo is the same. If the West punishes China, the more Beijing has nothing to lose and a crack down is more likely. Without these protests, the US was still driving towards the same goal as if China did move in and kill people. This was just an excuse to further their agenda.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
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Hong Kong ranks #1 on the Heritage Economic Freedom Index. The U.S. ranks #12. Instead of worrying about the freest people in the world, why isn't our government more concerned about increasing freedom in America? Maybe China can pass a law demanding rights for Americans.

Economic freedom is far more important. Voting is overrated. What good is voting if socialists can out vote you and take your stuff? America was much freer when it was less democratic.

My criticism of the U.S. government's recently passed Hong Kong legislation does not mean that I am not sympathetic to the cause of the protestors. It's just that Congressmen living in glass houses should not throw stones. I hate hypocrisy!


look at the responses of the brainless masses
 
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Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
a closer look at the vote share suggests that the dramatic shift was a little more nuanced, with the pan-democrats garnering an additional 8 percentage points to get 55 per cent, compared to their performance of 47 per cent in the 2015 elections, while the pro-establishment camp obtained 41 per cent. The remaining 4 per cent went to the non-affiliated independents, most of whom could be classified as being under the broad pro-democracy umbrella.

- SCMP

So... the electoral base is roughly divided ?

Btw, Trump has passed the HK bill.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
Eventally the truth will dawn on most of the die hards; the mainlanders will be richer, on the average, than Hong Kongers will be by then, and probably freer too, in the things that matter. Media cannot distort reality forever -- especially when reality is only a few kilometers away. Eventually the die hards will begin to sound hollow, and the sensible people will abandon them.

Not until Shenzhen, Shanghai, and many major Chinese cities surpassed HK in GDP per capita. It isn't about the truth. It is more about which side you choose to be with.

Shanghai, Shenzhen, etc. will be rising economically; Hong Kong will be falling. The mainland cities will meet HK somewhere in the middle, probably far sooner than you expect.


Finally, more and more regular HK people are fed up with the violent protests, that is true but they are still outnumbered by those that blamed the government/police for the violence for now.

What evidence do you have that police haters outnumber cockroach haters? Recent outpourings of support for the Hong Kong police would seem to disagree with you. And the Mong Kok no show -- only the rioters showed up at that widely pre-announced demonstration, very few normal people did -- would also suggest that the cockroaches are quickly losing much support. So what evidence can you stack up against these observations?
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Look at Xinjiang, the CCP has been tolerated and granted many people amnesty. They invited "moderates" to join the government institutions. They funded the building of many new mosques. Did it placate the radicals. The answer is no. Not only the radicals didn't get placated. They used the opportunities to infiltrate the government institutions. In the end, the radicals started killing people. And the moderates helped the radicals, funded the radicals, and supported the radicals. Sounds familiar.

If radical behavior continues and people keep getting killed, I think it becomes a different story. My idea for amnesty for those who did not attempt murder. However, deradicalization requires many steps both short and long term.

A key point is, short term, institutions such as schools, churches, and media must all denounce violence. Why were HK radicals able to cause so much damage, all 3 of those institutions (usually the most influential) all openly supported their actions. I believe part of it was for political gain, now they have won district elections, they will also have greater voice in choosing CE. If they are able to make gains, but violence continues or gets worse, then they have to take a stand. If they don't then they are true psychopaths and willing to win a Pyrrhic victory, at which I guess there is no choice for the newly-minted opposition but to migrate elsewhere.

Assuming the short term goals are able to be accomplished, then you must deradicalize the education apparatus. There is absolutely no excuse for teachers bringing minors to a standoff against police. These people should be fired right away for endangering children. Of course, we can see that the government is soft on them right now. However, any future government cannot stand down on something like this. Why did USA target so many "madrassas" in Afghanistan?

Instead of being proud of China's achievement in the past 3 decades, many HK people are actually envy and being sour grapes. Most of the luxury stores in HK actually depend on mainlanders and don't like the locals. When you used to look down at someone but now you are the one being look down upon, what would you feel. Many HK people just don't want to face the reality. HK is no longer the gateway of China and indispensable.

I would like to add that I think the leftover cold war mentality that still permeates throughout the Western hemisphere has also influenced the anti-China thought. Since most HK'ers are descended from mainland China, I think many families have embellished their pasts to say they "escaped Communism" rather than the reality of seeking better fortune. If you don't add this "heroic" element, then it just seems like you missed the boat. If you missed the boat, you naturally fall into the "have not" category and resentment grows.

(Note for readers not familiar with HK: In case are thinking, all HK’ers are from China! I mean "natives", for example, people who belong to Heung Yee Kuk:
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Eventally the truth will dawn on most of the die hards; the mainlanders will be richer, on the average, than Hong Kongers will be by then, and probably freer too, in the things that matter. Media cannot distort reality forever -- especially when reality is only a few kilometers away. Eventually the die hards will begin to sound hollow, and the sensible people will abandon them.

I agree that the truth will be hard to ignore. However, the anti-establishment might come up with more outrageous theories like CCP is robbing HK, and many people would probably believe it.

The more extreme "yellow silk" have said, they do not need an economy, they just need freedom. That is truly religious-level belief, because it has no basis in reality at all. What would the economy of HK look like with limited access to PRC? The 4 "bigs" of HK economy are professional services, logistics, tourism, and finance. All are totally dependent on PRC and employ like 80% of the workforce or something like that.

I think this quote nailed it

Not until Shenzhen, Shanghai, and many major Chinese cities surpassed HK in GDP per capita. It isn't about the truth. It is more about which side you choose to be with.

second guessing stuff (plus saying Beijing might turn down an elected
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So just to clarify, because it is a kind of complicated process. They would not turn down the actual elected official. There are candidates for CE nominated by a nomination council which have to be approved by Beijing. These approved candidates are then voted on by the citizens. What the article is talking about is potentially turning down nominated candidates.

Reflections of a Hong Kong friend...

Hard work of older generations built MTR, built Universities, built the road and bridges, made the city clean to no longer need "rat boxes" on lamp posts (
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). Radicals have only tried to destroy. Now that these new councillors have successfully utilized their weapon, time will tell whether they only seek personal power or actually have a plan to “Make HK Great Again”
 
...



So just to clarify, because it is a kind of complicated process. They would not turn down the actual elected official. There are candidates for CE nominated by a nomination council which have to be approved by Beijing. These approved candidates are then voted on by the citizens. What the article is talking about is potentially turning down nominated candidates.


...
the chunk that led me to say the article is "saying Beijing might turn down an elected
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Yesterday at 8:12 AM is, quote,

Tian Feilong, an associate professor at Beihang University’s law school in Beijing, said that as a last resort Beijing could exercise its right to refuse the appointment of an “unacceptable” chief executive candidate.

“[The results] will boost the direct or indirect political power of those not in the pro-establishment camp,” Tian said.

“[But] if a candidate that is not acceptable to Beijing has emerged, Beijing would not appoint them.”

end of quote (
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Nov 20, 2019
Oct 16, 2019
and
China summons US diplomat, vows to retaliate if Donald Trump signs Hong Kong democracy act into law
  • Beijing calls on Washington to ‘stop the act becoming law’ after it is passed by Senate, with the US president retaining the right to sign or veto it
  • Support for the bill surges among senators amid a siege at a Hong Kong university campus
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Glob. Times:
US' latest HK act 'nonsensical, self-damaging'
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followup:
China firmly opposes U.S. signing Hong Kong-related act into law: FM
Xinhua| 2019-11-28 12:42:16
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The Chinese government and the people firmly oppose the United States signing of the so-called Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019 into law, according to a statement issued by the Foreign Ministry Thursday.

The move is a severe interference in Hong Kong affairs, which are China's internal affairs. It is also in serious violation of the international law and basic norms governing international relations. The Chinese government and the people firmly oppose such stark hegemonic acts, the statement said.

"We urge the United States not to continue going down the wrong path, or China will take countermeasures and the U.S. must bear all the consequences," the statement said.

The Chinese government is determined in opposing external forces interfering in Hong Kong affairs, implementing "one country, two systems" principle and safeguarding national sovereignty, security and development interests.

Since Hong Kong's return to the motherland, the practice of "one country, two systems" principle has been proven to be a universally recognized success. Hong Kong residents enjoy unprecedented democratic rights in accordance with law.

The United States, in disregard of facts and distorting right and wrong, openly supported violent criminals who rampantly smashed facilities, assaulted innocent civilians, trampled on the rule of law and jeopardized social order. The egregious and malicious nature of its intentions is fully revealed. Its very aim is to undermine Hong Kong's stability and prosperity, sabotage the practice of "one country, two systems," and disrupt the Chinese nation's endeavor to realize the great rejuvenation.

"We remind the U.S. that Hong Kong is part of China and Hong Kong affairs are China's internal affairs and no foreign government or force shall interfere," read the statement.

This Act will only further expose the malicious and hegemonic nature of the United States' intentions to the Chinese people, including Hong Kong compatriots. And the Chinese people will only stand in greater solidarity. The U.S. attempts are bound to fail, according to the statement.

Glob. Times
HK Act reveals US 'sinister intention,' to complicate trade talks
also have "Xinjiang" inside
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supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
the chunk that led me to say the article is "saying Beijing might turn down an elected
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Yesterday at 8:12 AM is, quote,

Tian Feilong, an associate professor at Beihang University’s law school in Beijing, said that as a last resort Beijing could exercise its right to refuse the appointment of an “unacceptable” chief executive candidate.

Bolded for you, the candidate is not elected by the people.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Well you said
“Beijing might turn down an elected (Chief Executive of HK) [wiki link]”

Not

“Beijing might turn down elected candidates for (Chief Executive of HK)”

That is a big difference, the first implies that Beijing is rejecting the citizen’s choice.
 
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