Hong-Kong Protests

[Nutrient]

(A delayed reply, as I have been short of time.)

when I entered a high school in 1986,

in then-Czechoslovakia the neo-Stalinists (who indirectly opposed Gorbachev) appeared to last forever,

and things had been the same for the next three years (despite changes beginning in Poland and Hungary since 1988);

it looked like an opposition would've been handled like in, you know, China -- this is what we actually feared in November of 1989 --

and, fast forward now, free elections were held at the time of my school-leaving exam in 1990

I know you are hoping for something dramatic to happen in Hong Kong, but in case you are thinking that the CCP will collapse soon, note that

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. The high approval rates for the Chinese Communist Party have not changed much over the years;

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.

So if you are waiting for the CCP to collapse, you will have to wait a long, long time. Enjoy your wait!

 

[Nutrient]

For the last 2 decades at the HK legislative elections, the anti-establishment parties have always won between 55%-60% of the votes. Admittedly, I was hoping the silent majority does exist but this district election result proved that is not true. I am not going to bury my head in the sand and pretend otherwise.

I assume that by "anti-establishment parties" you mean "anti-Beijing parties". It is no surprise that these parties have had 55% to 60% of the vote historically, as the mainland has been much poorer than Hong Kong over that time.

However, the mainland is catching up. For example, I have mentioned that Hong Kong is importing electricity from a nuclear reactor in the "backward" mainland. This means that the mainland has nuclear power plants and Hong Kong does not, which means that the island is falling behind technologically. Where technology goes, economies follow. Hong Kong's economic advantages are slipping and will continue to slip.

There are way more instances that the HKPF was harassed by the HK people than when the HK people are calling the rioters cockroaches.

I have heard that the "ordinary people" interfering with police are actually rioters wearing normal clothing, attempting to make it seem that the rioters have support from regular people. This deception would be in accord with their other deceptions, such as claiming that Hong Kong has no democracy -- which the recent election absolutely disproves. In short, the rioters have been lying from the start. What is your reply to that?

(I am omitting the rest of your comment, as I don't want my response to get much longer.)

 

[Nutrient]

the pro-china narrative here is so deep and thick, it's quite a fantasy land

Then feel free to counter what you think is false. However, you must remember that the people here are well informed and will instantly smell a lie. The stench emitted by Western media has been so strong over recent years, our noses have gotten heavy workouts.

 

[localizer]

Freedom is not brought about by democracy. Freedom is from limited government which is not dependent on the type of government.

Mob rule is no different from totalitarianism. at least totalitarians are more predictable.


These terrorists simply want to impose their way of life on the rest of the population under the guise of "freedom" and "democracy."



The key to good governance is capable leaders in a republic with limited powers. America used to be this way, but democracy slowly eroded away the freedoms that it once had.




"Only in their dreams can men be truly free."

 

[KYli]

I assume that by "anti-establishment parties" you mean "anti-Beijing parties". It is no surprise that these parties have had 55% to 60% of the vote historically, as the mainland has been much poorer than Hong Kong over that time.

However, the mainland is catching up. For example, I have mentioned that Hong Kong is importing electricity from a nuclear reactor in the "backward" mainland. This means that the mainland has nuclear power plants and Hong Kong does not, which means that the island is falling behind technologically. Where technology goes, economies follow. Hong Kong's economic advantages are slipping and will continue to slip.

That's true to some extent. Both fear and look down at the mainland China played a role. The 6/4 incident also reinforced their views. We can subdivide anti-Beijing HK people into four factions. 1. KMT remnants and wealthy people who fled China after CCP prevailed in the civil war or during culture revolution(elites but very old and dying). 2. White worshipers that can't forget the past glory when HK was ruled by the UK(elites or middle class and most of them are at 50). 3. Middle or lower class people in HK that used to look down at the mainlanders and could go to China to show off(The biggest group). 4. Youngsters that are brainwashed by other three factions.

Instead of being proud of China's achievement in the past 3 decades, many HK people are actually envy and being sour grapes. Most of the luxury stores in HK actually depend on mainlanders and don't like the locals. When you used to look down at someone but now you are the one being look down upon, what would you feel. Many HK people just don't want to face the reality. HK is no longer the gateway of China and indispensable.

To answer your question, many HK people are proud of China's achievement but there are just as many that are in denial.

I have heard that the "ordinary people" interfering with police are actually rioters wearing normal clothing, attempting to make it seem that the rioters have support from regular people. This deception would be in accord with their other deceptions, such as claiming that Hong Kong has no democracy -- which the recent election absolutely disproves. In short, the rioters have been lying from the start. What is your reply to that?

(I am omitting the rest of your comment, as I don't want my response to get much longer.)

The most aggressive ones that interfering with police are just rioters in plain clothes. Like I said before the rioters are well organized and very good at propaganda. A dozens of FB groups and TG groups that coordinate with each others to manipulate and spread lies. But in many instances there are literally hundreds or even thousands chatting anti-China propaganda and insulting police, these are just regular people. Most of them probably believed in rumors from FB or TG that the police is beating the youngsters. It is like in the movie, a few dozens of the rioters in the plain clothes insulting the police at first and then the regular people join them later.

 

[Nutrient]

That's true to some extent. Both fear and look down at the mainland China played a role. The 6/4 incident also reinforced their views. We can subdivide anti-Beijing HK people into four factions. 1. KMT remnants and wealthy people who fled China after CCP prevailed in the civil war or during culture revolution(elites but very old and dying). 2. White worshipers that can't forget the past glory when HK was ruled by the UK(elites or middle class and most of them are at 50). 3. Middle or lower class people in HK that used to look down at the mainlanders and could go to China to show off(The biggest group). 4. Youngsters that are brainwashed by other three factions.

Instead of being proud of China's achievement in the past 3 decades, many HK people are actually envy and being sour grapes. Most of the luxury stores in HK actually depend on mainlanders and don't like the locals. When you used to look down at someone but now you are the one being look down upon, what would you feel. Many HK people just don't want to face the reality. HK is no longer the gateway of China and indispensable.

To answer your question, many HK people are proud of China's achievement but there are just as many that are in denial.

Eventally the truth will dawn on most of the die hards; the mainlanders will be richer, on the average, than Hong Kongers will be by then, and probably freer too, in the things that matter. Media cannot distort reality forever -- especially when reality is only a few kilometers away. Eventually the die hards will begin to sound hollow, and the sensible people will abandon them.

The most aggressive ones that interfering with police are just rioters in plain clothes. Like I said before the rioters are well organized and very good at propaganda. A dozens of FB groups and TG groups that coordinate with each others to manipulate and spread lies. But in many instances there are literally hundreds or even thousands chatting anti-China propaganda and insulting police, these are just regular people. Most of them probably believed in rumors from FB or TG that the police is beating the youngsters. It is like in the movie, a few dozens of the rioters in the plain clothes insulting the police at first and then the regular people join them later.

Some normal people may support the rioters, but how many actually show up? I understand that only rioters appeared in the widely announced Mong Kok protests -- hardly any normal people. And this pattern has gotten more common recently. So how many normal people are actually interfering with the police (as opposed to rioters in plain clothes)?

My conclusion: the cockroaches are seriously losing their appeal to normal Hong Kongers. The recent election is not evidence of support for violent protesters.

 

[getready]

There are also regular citizen supporting the police and encouraging them. It's not completely one sided.

 

[KYli]

Eventally the truth will dawn on most of the die hards; the mainlanders will be richer, on the average, than Hong Kongers will be by then, and probably freer too, in the things that matter. Media cannot distort reality forever -- especially when reality is only a few kilometers away. Eventually the die hards will begin to sound hollow, and the sensible people will abandon them.

Not until Shenzhen, Shanghai, and many major Chinese cities surpassed HK in GDP per capita. It isn't about the truth. It is more about which side you choose to be with.

My conclusion: the cockroaches are seriously losing their appeal to normal Hong Kongers. The recent election is not evidence of support for violent protesters.

I don't want to generalize the "normal" or "regular" HK people. Some regular HK people support the rioters and some regular HK people support the police. It is lot more complicated. I understand some members here disagree with me for saying electing the anti-establishment is equal to supporting the rioters. Yes it is true that many voters voting for the anti-establishment might not support violence. But they still choose to vote for the anti-establishment because they are blaming the HK government and the police for the violence not the rioters.

People need to realize the anti-establishment parties and some of their supporters coordinate with the radicals for the violent protests. For example, there is a TG group that form by car owners. These car owners are "regular HKers" that don't participate in violent protests. When the rioters tried to sabotage the HK airport and got trapped, at least a few hundreds of these car owners drove their cars and pick up these rioters to escape. Another example, when thousands of rioters tried to break the siege at PolyU, the police was able to beaten them back. They were forced to fled. Hundreds of car owners come to their rescue. Unlucky for these car owners, too many petrol bombs were throw during the retreat. Some of the cars got burned down.

Finally, more and more regular HK people are fed up with the violent protests, that is true but they are still outnumbered by those that blamed the government/police for the violence for now.

Some normal people may support the rioters, but how many actually show up? I understand that only rioters appeared in the widely announced Mong Kok protests -- hardly any normal people. And this pattern has gotten more common recently. So how many normal people are actually interfering with the police (as opposed to rioters in plain clothes)?

"Regular" people don't participate in violent protests but they do participate in peaceful protests. And they also provide logistics, supplies, and finance to the rioters. They don't directly interfere with the police but they would help the rioters to escape, they would surround the police and insult the police. They would provide sanctuary to the rioters and refuse to allow the police to enter by claiming it is a private property.

 

[KYli]

There are also regular citizen supporting the police and encouraging them. It's not completely one sided.

Of course not, and more and more of them have come out in voicing their support for the HKPF. Even helping the police to catch the rioters.

 

[Jura The idiot]

second guessing stuff (plus saying Beijing might turn down an elected

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):
Time for Beijing to rethink Hong Kong script after pan-democrat landslide, Chinese analysts say

• The results of the district council elections will boost the power of the non-establishment camp and possibly influence the race for the city’s leader, observers say
• A central government official agreed that Beijing was surprised by the landslide win for the pan-democrats

follow the link

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if interested