Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

xiabonan said:

Again I've got to say that although the people of HK are certainly courageous and full of enthusiasm, or at least those participating in OCLP, they need some political wisdom to push forward their agenda.

Back in the early days of CCP's rise, when they're weak and small all they advocated for is "cooperation between CCP and KMT to fight foreign invaders", and then later it became "to bring multi-party democratic system to China and have our presence in the congress".

It was not until the forces are largely even and the PLA started to win at major battlefields, the slogan became "cross the Yangtze river and liberate the whole of China".

You need to win over as many neutral parties as possible, to sound as realistic and reasonable as possible, to tailor your message to your potential audience as much as possible, in order to push forward your goals.

In this case, the protesters could have explicitly said that they "oppose the HKSAR government and CY Leung" but "have full faith in the Central Government that the voices of the people of HK will be heard and considered".

They could have said that "all they fight for is a better and more prosperous HK, for its people and for the greater good of Motherland", and "strongly oppose any foreign intervention and ideas of separatism".

They could have gathered support from the mainlanders by saying "we want to eliminate the income gap, we want to afford our own houses, we're no different from you so let's work together!".

They could have proposed a series of changes and reforms, both political and non-political, and initiate a direct dialogue with Beijing by sending a representative, and hide the "democracy" part somewhere in the text.

They could have proposed that instead of "HK people nominate as they wish", that a committee can be setup, where members are elected by people of HK, and this committee will represent the HK people to nominate a candidate, whereas Beijing will nominate one or two as well, and the CE can be elected from this group. Isn't this a middle ground?

I think it's important that the HK people realise that the kind of democracy they're pushing for is non-existent in many oldest and largest and most advanced and developed democracies in the world.

Democracy can take many forms, and it's not just one form that will work. If you're not happy with Beijing's arrangements, it's probably more realistic to push for change by first suggesting a middle ground, and slowly work up from there.

After all, the essence of democracy is about "compromise".

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Thanks! These are good points. Too bad it's only discussions and can't be real. I do believe that's one very good possible way to make things work, although I feared of all those actors in between, especially LegCo, CY, some special interests elites.

Bltizo said:

Then the protesters should seek a direct line to Beijing and bypass CY and special interests elite -- tell Beijing, we're open to negotiate and we're not radical independence seekers.

Like it or not, the prevailing theme over the last few months, is that the movement has been one of seeking something like de facto independence and anti-CCP. Beijing will not want to be the first to blink if that is who they believe they're facing.

At the moment, I feel like if Beijing sends representatives to the protesters they'll get booed quite heavily. The public sentiment (at least broadcasted on media) is overwhelmingly anti CCP. That sentiment is understandable, but not helpful if they want negotiation

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Yes, and this situation is worsened because of all the media coverage in the West...

I see CNN posting stories about how some students claim that "they want to end CCP's rule in HK" and label themselves as "anti-communist freedom and democracy fighters".

And they call the HK's police's actions as "they make HK like communist China".

airsuperiority said:

Afterwards, pray the next guy up helps HK get better. HKers don't seek independence, and they're rational about the candidates. If pan-dem doesn't work, they aint gonna get reelected or needs to change the leader. This also makes pro-China camp more competitive and also attentive to people's needs if they wanna get power.

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Tell that to those who wave the Colonial Colors, and the HKU student bodies that in their last 2 publications promote separatism. HK people and media really not doing enough to assure Beijing that these are merely stint by a minority.

Besides, throw CY out is easy (for Beijing) but who to replace him, the interim CE for the next 2 years till 2017? Supposedly that'd fall to Carrie Lam but the insurgents' demands also call for her removal, remember?

xiabonan said:

Yes, and this situation is worsened because of all the media coverage in the West...

I see CNN posting stories about how some students claim that "they want to end CCP's rule in HK" and label themselves as "anti-communist freedom and democracy fighters".

And they call the HK's police's actions as "they make HK like communist China".

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That's the kind of thing hardliners at Beijing are looking for. This is why I say there's no hope.

xiabonan said:

Yes, and this situation is worsened because of all the media coverage in the West...

I see CNN posting stories about how some students claim that "they want to end CCP's rule in HK" and label themselves as "anti-communist freedom and democracy fighters".

And they call the HK's police's actions as "they make HK like communist China".

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Yep, and that is only just making Beijing even less inclined to send representatives.

The protesters have made their stand, now they need nuance and moderation to bypass the HK government and straight to Beijing. Wave HK and PRC flags together and you'll have the kind of attention you'll want from Beijing.

MwRYum said:

As a born pessimist I can't help it.

But even if CY get thrown out (by CCP standard, that option is definitely on Xi Jinping's top 5 selection since zero hour) there's still be big problem of "how Beijing can walk out of this with a creditable win-win resolution" to hammer out. By giving Beijing nothing in return, those demands by insurgents only going to make Beijing look like losers.

And CCP, by their traditions, they'd happily take a Pyrrhic victory instead of a clear-cut defeat. On that account, you can imagine what it could only mean for HK.

On one end, this is a leaderless insurgency at best, and none of its prominent players are willing to take anything less than total victory against Beijing; on the other, a hardline regime that would tolerate a Pyrrhic victory instead of suffering a defeat. There's no possibility that there could be a happy ending.

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I just read this post now. Well I hope miracles in HK can happen and change things for you to a more optimistic view.
You know that too, everyone in HK is realistically pessimist about the future and the odd chances of winning. Even I am. I always felt HK was a cold place and people like myself will get laughed at. I'd say I feel more insecure than you because I left HK since I was 6, however I tell you man, the past 48 hours made me changed how I see HK. Even my friends said the same. People opened up to each other, supported, comforted, protected, assisted, helped each other. A kindness and sense of community I've never seen before. And self discipline. Never been like this before, even in the previous protests and you know. And you being pessimist I don't blame you neither. I fell in love with HK and for real, because now I know this city deserves my love and my life for it. Even my friends, cousins, and etc, are all out in the streets now. We all say HK has changed, is not the same anymore. I feel HKers had grown. I didn't know we are so determined group. And don't forget, you're one of us too. As much as I feel a lot of times how your views and opinions and mine are so different and how I disagree with how you see things, I still know you're a Hker and consider you one of us. The benefits of this victory isn't just for HKer, but for Chinese, Chinese history, and world history. This is why everyone around the world are voicing their supports, even overseas Chinese like myself. I was at the second rally tonight and a lady spoke. She came to Vancouver for holiday when this broke out. She kept crying and thanked us for our support, knowing many here are generations-old Chinese. Even elderly are present. Anyways, let's give it a chance once more shall we?

Bltizo said:

Great, well it is reassuring to know that at least some are willing to actively avoid something too inflammatory such as the old colonial flag.

I'm sure Beijing wouldn't mind sacrificing CY, and at the end of the day they'll also want HK to succeed, and probably won't be completely against the universal sufferage HK wants -- but they are super-ultra-fantastically wary about HK using democracy as a means to independence or subverting their power.
The predominant anti-CCP mood among occupy ain't helping no one.

I bet you, if you guys turn up tomorrow with HK and PRC flags side by side, the government will start to change its tune.

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HKers are rational first, emotions second...hence why people seemed cold first, but if they open up, we all get along. If what you said is really true, and there's sth I can do, I'd do it, literally.

The people of HK, if they're wise enough, should stay away from foreign press.

This kind of stories will only do them a disservice, than adding pressure to Beijing.

If there's anything I'm certain, it is that the CCP will never succumb to so-called "international pressure".

More often than not this will only make Beijing more determined.

Also, these kind of stuff/stories are not only sensitive to Beijing, they're also sensitive to the ordinary Chinese.

Do you know how many Chinese netizens actually felt that the Beijing government should crack down on the protesters after knowing that CNN is making a big fuss out of this?

It's simple: if CNN and such, is on your side, then they're not going to be on your side.

They're not going to listen to you. They're not going to even try to understand your needs, or what exactly are you protesting for.

They're going to automatically assume this is another case of "foreign intervention in China's internal affairs" and "the West trying to demonise China and hurt China's sovereignty".

The Chinese see ideas such as "sovereignty" and "administration rights" as noble, if not more noble, as Americans value "freedom" and "democracy".

If they see it as something that will hurt China's sovereignty, then that's it. There's no room for negotiation.

Their sentiments are fuelled by recent reports of HKers trying to break into PLA's camp in HK, and some people marching with colonial flags.

No matter how much HKers are going to explain that this isn't about independence, the mainlanders will just dismiss it as lies.

P.S. I've used "they" throughout this comment so this is only describing, it doesn't reflect my views.

airsuperiority said:

HKers are rational first, emotions second...hence why people seemed cold first, but if they open up, we all get along. If what you said is really true, and there's sth I can do, I'd do it, literally.

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Dude, at the end of the day I think our goals are common where it matters. We want to see a peaceful and mutually beneficial result from this.

I have no idea how wide your group is, but if you think what I said about getting Beijing's attention makes sense, and if you truly think your fellow protesters are more interested in objective goals and having democracy in HK and not interested in independence or subverting CCP rule on the mainland --- then consider testing the waters among your group.

The prevailing message right now is anti-CCP, slanted heavily towards independence, democracy and no negotiation.

I seriously think that if HK can show Beijing that their movement is for HK and not against China (and that does mean accepting the CCP for how they rule on the mainland, and that even if HK gets universal sufferage they will still be part of China and subject to a few limits like now) -- then consider my suggestions.
It's your movement, and you and your family and friend's network, and I have been impressed at how peaceful the demonstrations have been. Affirming that the movement isn't for independence or subversion of Chinese rule on the mainland, and focusing on the issues of CY and special interest groups, will likely change the dynamic dramatically.


Just a suggestion.

MwRYum said:

Then it's a good thing that this time so far, the scopes and demands are focused. But let's not forget back in July, the Colonial Colors (the colors of HK separatists) flew high and proud in the annual anti-government march. The images weren't on CCTV (as expected) but were uncensored on their netspace, and you can imagine what manner of comments they have about it. Thus, keeping things focused will be a good thing for the movement.

But without any moderation on the demands the Beijing can walk away with - not necessary with a smile, just not something that'd be marked as a defeat - there's no hope for a good ending. You should know what I mean by that.

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Totally understand man. And again, if I can literally do something and like you guys say, and it will work, I can literally bust my ass for it, although I'm almost sure anyone at the movement now will. We all care, and we want to make it work for HK for the people, and not actually have cold tensions with Beijing. We don't hate Beijing or China because we hate them. It's just our fears of what can happen like what it is today. But anyways hearing what you guys think and have to say, yea I can say if only there's some way to make it happen, it's definitely for it. After all, we're all Chinese. Some people say they ain't Chinese, and I know it's a very offensive thing to hear for you guys, but it's temporary and from certain grievances that's actually directed at how things are and the attitude, not actually the people itself. Trust me because otherwise when HKers won't keep asking the police to go on strike or join their side(cuz we know they're also Hkers), and people cried when the tear gas was deployed and it isn't because of the gas, but because our own people/police whom we loved and respect are firing back at us. And again some Chinese announced their support and we thanked them. The sentiments of Chinese seeing our own as our own brothers and family remains in our roots and in HK's blood and culture. Seriously, otherwise you won't have all those songs and things where people say we're all Chinese, or those HK style songs that are patriotic. I really honestly always thought HK's changed for the worst, but all the recent experiences told me we haven't.


And one more personal story. I remember at one point last year, 2 ignorant teens created a yasukini shrine to pray to. I was so angry because Chinese, including HKers also suffered greatly too back then in WW2, and those losers don't know what they're doing. They're doing it to anger China because of that anti-Chinese attitude last year, but still that's totally unnecessary and ignorant. Those are the useless tools that's making our generation look bad and HKers look bad, and fortunately, and as you can see, these people ain't in the protest now. And that's because these people don't represent the majority. They're small groups of extremists who don't know what they're doing, even though just a phase. Oh and the majority of people never supported independence and never will, and a lot are against raising the colonial flag you know. And again it's always been "HK can't go back to the UK. Hk has to move forward"

But yea, you've got bigots everywhere, just don't let them affect your perception.

I belive what you say but in this day and age it's these people who go to the extremes that grabs attention and angers the mainlaners. Just like how a few tourists can make millions of mainland tourists all look bad. I believe that those with bad manners and do things such as peeing or passing in the public are definitely only a minority of all mainland tourists if you do the statistics, but these people are enough to destroy image of all Chinese people.