Germany Carl Zeiss, heart of Dutch ASML Lithography Equipment.

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Ironically all those big names companies you mentioned have no expertise on EUV. lol
They still probably looked into it way more than you and tidalwave can imagine. It technology directly upstream to theirs.
Those SMIC and SMEE things are just roadmaps. Lets hope they dont got stuck by bottlenecks.
14nm SMIC is in operation in Hauwei's phones right now. Even coming up with a road-map is incredibly fast given the time.
Yes, in their field, but chip manufacturing is not in their field. Even if the waste treatment specialist is a genius Huawei will not hire him because its not the right field.
Huawei has nothing to do with waste management. I'm sure they've looked into EUV and lithography/chip fabricating because those are upstream technologies. They are interested in these if there were feasible strategies, but his proposal was not accepted.
Secondly i dont recall reading tidal is looking for a job.
Getting let go from consulting, giving unwarranted advice, whatever.
You assume because huawei a company people know what they doing. I gave an example CFO Meng got caught because she didnt even know the basics of data protection.
Huawei has a lot of credit under its belt for what it has created. You'll need far more than one little example to do anything to overturn it. Boeing had several recent issues with its aircraft but it doesn't mean now it needs to listen to advice from every internet yahoo who can put together a presentation from googled stuff.
Well, even if some slides are in public domain. why you assume thats all tidal knows. His analysis went well beyond those on the slides on this thread.
I made that assumption for many reasons.

1. He doesn't show scientific thinking and doesn't understand what evidence is for. If you ask him to show evidence for his claims, he will angrily tell you, "I'll do everything in reverse of what you want! You want evidence? I won't give it!" Or he might say, "Why don't you prove that it isn't what I claimed instead of me proving it is?" Nobody with this logical pattern can be a scientist.
2. He's an Asian person wearing a dew rag and a thick gold chain on a website called the Neo Black Panthers fantasizing about lithography in South America and Africa. Not only does he not have an impressive resume (PhD, CEO, patent-holder, professor, etc...) which you would expect from someone the the capability to intelligently advise Huawei, he has this lunacy going on!
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3. The number of experts in the world with enough experience to advise Huawei is very small. The chances that one of them comes onto this forum, with no credentials to complain and curse and generally act like an uneducated person with a rage issue, are basically none. And it's his burden of proof to convince people that he is such a rare person, which he has not done.

Your trust in him comes down to this: you have no mental filter. If someone shows you graphs and talks to you, you get lost in what he says and you lose the big picture. He becomes your big picture. The bottom line is that you trust the claims of a random person on the internet with no credentials over the proven capabilities of a company like Huawei simply because one spoke to you and the other wouldn't, and that shows that you have no ability whatsoever to analyze the situation. You just let yourself get completely stuck in your own little bubble.
Yes, i would say he raised the awareness of EUV. Without that most people dont know what that is.
On this forum only.
But importantly the US CIA and journalists have accessed this thread and bring it all the way to administration and therefore specifically targeting ASML EUV to China and subsequent sanctioning on huawei. Maybe huawei didnt take his proposal and US government did.

What does Pompeo and his researchers in DC know about EUV unless something very profiled topic (Such as higlhly debated thread) in public domain

If thats the case, he created a huge impact , more than anyone gives him credit for.
You'd have to be absolutely out of your mind to think that both China and the US needed tidalwave's words on this forum to understand the importance of EUV. As I said, you have no mental filter, no scope/big picture and think that your little world is the same size as the real world. Let me tell you something: we're all here to pass the time and have fun discussions. Nothing here is of any importance to any company or government and no real experts in EUV/semiconductors would have the time or dare come here spilling his junk for people to read.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I agree with this.

People need to remember that there is a reason for why the trend in the semiconductor industry is towards horizontal integration.

The best talents, science, and innovation will never happen entirely in one country. Even the US, it does not have the best capabilities in many areas.

There is no country in the world that is entirely autarkic and self-reliant. Many countries already tried import substitution industrialization and being self sufficient in everything. Not least the Soviet Union for about 40 years. It does not work. Even if a company is guaranteed a domestic market, all this will do in the long run is remove competitive pressures. The domestic industry will fall further and further behind.

If Huawei is forced to source everything domestically, what happens when a foreign company like ASML has the best product? Its domestic source won't be as good, and its product will suffer, compared to its competitors. Then, Huawei has to focus to make sure all its suppliers are the best in the world, which is unrealistic. This prevents it from focusing on its core competencies, its competitive advantages. This is why the trend for decades has been away from vertical integration. To ask Huawei to go into chip manufacturing or running foundries is backwards when its core competency is 5G. And not only that, but there are hundreds, literally thousands of suppliers that go into IT products, with not only IP but years and decades of know-how. There are breakthroughs being made in basic research in every developed country in the world.

If you are not a part of this collaborative worldwide ecosystem, you are going to fall behind, period. Yes, China can develop some domestic self-sufficiency up and down the supply chain, but the effort put into replicating others' technologies that already exist will not be spent towards improving China's own competitive advantages and going into new innovation. All you are going to do is end up with a cheap substitute that will probably be marginally inferior.

The global semiconductor industry (and other advanced industries) are global for a reason. Not even the US can do anything. There is only a single hegemonic system. You are either part of it, or you are not. The problem for China today is that the US is in control of the system because it is more centrally located. China has no choice but to work to improve its relations with the US or it risks being forced into economic isolation and losing the relative gains of the Deng-Jiang-Hu years.
Do you know the population of STEM graduates in each country? China now has far more than the US and EU, or even the whole developed world, combined. China's tech landscape can be like 2 USA and 2 EU working together. Now, do you think 2 Americas and 2 EUs can together command all the best technologies in the world? I think so. China just needs time because its drastic increase in wealth, education, and technology, only came not long ago.

There is no way to improve relations with the US. America fears China's rise and will stop at nothing to stop it, no matter how China paints it. As we Chinese say, this is a battle with your back against the river. The only way out is to cut it through your enemy.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
But importantly the US CIA and journalists have accessed this thread and bring it all the way to administration and therefore specifically targeting ASML EUV to China and subsequent sanctioning on huawei. Maybe huawei didnt take his proposal and US government did.
LOL. If the CIA is visiting this thread, then it must be only to laugh at the stupidity and naivete of the discussion while they're having a lunch break.
 

adiru

Junior Member
Registered Member
They still probably looked into it way more than you and tidalwave can imagine. It technology directly upstream to theirs.

14nm SMIC is in operation in Hauwei's phones right now. Even coming up with a road-map is incredibly fast given the time.

Huawei has nothing to do with waste management. I'm sure they've looked into EUV and lithography/chip fabricating because those are upstream technologies. They are interested in these if there were feasible strategies, but his proposal was not accepted.

Getting let go from consulting, giving unwarranted advice, whatever.

Huawei has a lot of credit under its belt for what it has created. You'll need far more than one little example to do anything to overturn it. Boeing had several recent issues with its aircraft but it doesn't mean now it needs to listen to advice from every internet yahoo who can put together a presentation from googled stuff.

I made that assumption for many reasons.

1. He doesn't show scientific thinking and doesn't understand what evidence is for. If you ask him to show evidence for his claims, he will angrily tell you, "I'll do everything in reverse of what you want! You want evidence? I won't give it!" Or he might say, "Why don't you prove that it isn't what I claimed instead of me proving it is?" Nobody with this logical pattern can be a scientist.
2. He's an Asian person wearing a dew rag and a thick gold chain on a website called the Neo Black Panthers fantasizing about lithography in South America and Africa. Not only does he not have an impressive resume (PhD, CEO, patent-holder, professor, etc...) which you would expect from someone the the capability to intelligently advise Huawei, he has this lunacy going on!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
3. The number of experts in the world with enough experience to advise Huawei is very small. The chances that one of them comes onto this forum, with no credentials to complain and curse and generally act like an uneducated person with a rage issue, are basically none. And it's his burden of proof to convince people that he is such a rare person, which he has not done.

Your trust in him comes down to this: you have no mental filter. If someone shows you graphs and talks to you, you get lost in what he says and you lose the big picture. He becomes your big picture. The bottom line is that you trust the claims of a random person on the internet with no credentials over the proven capabilities of a company like Huawei simply because one spoke to you and the other wouldn't, and that shows that you have no ability whatsoever to analyze the situation. You just let yourself get completely stuck in your own little bubble.

On this forum only.

You'd have to be absolutely out of your mind to think that both China and the US needed tidalwave's words on this forum to understand the importance of EUV. As I said, you have no mental filter, no scope/big picture and think that your little world is the same size as the real world. Let me tell you something: we're all here to pass the time and have fun discussions. Nothing here is of any importance to any company or government and no real experts in EUV/semiconductors would have the time or dare come here spilling his junk for people to read.

Can you prove huawei look into those ? Its actually downstream , not upstream. Logic design is higher abstraction level and manufacturing is lower physical level.
I dont like your assumptions.

14nm was what liang moon song last worked during his last day at TSMC before he bolted to Samsung . He got that under his belt so its logical SMIC should have no issue on that. 7nm he didnt touch. Again dont make this assumption it will be automatic.

Again. you making assumption that website is his and thats him.

Have fun? I could tell you take it very personal almost borderline obsessions.

Whenever there are criticism on CCP, you would always go into attack mode.
 
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adiru

Junior Member
Registered Member
LOL. If the CIA is visiting this thread, then it must be only to laugh at the stupidity and naivete of the discussion while they're having a lunch break.
We dont know. You making assumptions.
Do you work for CIA.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
China has no choice but to work to improve its relations with the US or it risks being forced into economic isolation and losing the relative gains of the Deng-Jiang-Hu years.
I find it deeply suspicious that new accounts are popping into this thread at exactly the time others are banned, with the same trolling, defeatism, and servile "advice". How seriously does this forum take ban evasion? Also, what sort of person has such a low sense of self-worth that they'd try to sneak back into a place that threw them out like a sack of trash? I guess it's the sort of person who would advocate China get on its knees.
Your trust in him comes down to this: you have no mental filter.
That's the polite way to put it. The more colourful way is that some people's minds are like a public toilet, anybody can come along and take a leak into it.
As we Chinese say, this is a battle with your back against the river. The only way out is to cut it through your enemy.
What more need be said? Can we end this sorry "discussion" now?
 

adiru

Junior Member
Registered Member
I find it deeply suspicious that new accounts are popping into this thread at exactly the time others are banned, with the same trolling, defeatism, and servile "advice". How seriously does this forum take ban evasion? Also, what sort of person has such a low sense of self-worth that they'd try to sneak back into a place that threw them out like a sack of trash? I guess it's the sort of person who would advocate China get on its knees.

That's the polite way to put it. The more colourful way is that some people's minds are like a public toilet, anybody can come along and take a leak into it.

What more need be said? Can we end this sorry "discussion" now?
Try to insult people would not make you stronger. Actually its a sign cowardly act
 

adiru

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do you know the population of STEM graduates in each country? China now has far more than the US and EU, or even the whole developed world, combined. China's tech landscape can be like 2 USA and 2 EU working together. Now, do you think 2 Americas and 2 EUs can together command all the best technologies in the world? I think so. China just needs time because its drastic increase in wealth, education, and technology, only came not long ago.

There is no way to improve relations with the US. America fears China's rise and will stop at nothing to stop it, no matter how China paints it. As we Chinese say, this is a battle with your back against the river. The only way out is to cut it through your enemy.
Alot of China new graduates are jobless right now.
They worry paying their bills.

Nationalist sentiment alot of times are dangerous
 
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