Death toll in Xinjiang riot rises to 140

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
There is nothing about Western jurisprudence that we "fail to understand".

If that’s the case then lets see better evidence of Kadeer's guilt.


Firstly I don't know whether Kadeer is guilty of promoting the riots, as the Chinese authorities would like us to believe. If she is proven to have been the main instigator of the riots then the Americans should hand her back to stand trial.
But on the contrary side as “Yehe” pointed out earlier, singling out Kadeer,saves them from pointing the finger at the whole Uigher population.

However if they want to avoid creating another focal point for Western criticism, they need to come up with better evidence of Kadeer's guilt than what was provided by a recent poster. Circumstantial evidence and conjecture within the news clipping provided as evidence, is not an acceptable standard, when trying to determine guilt. After spending a lot of time living in the West as you claim, it’s a point you should be well aware of.
 

Wolverine

Banned Idiot
After spending a lot of time living in the West as you claim, it’s a point you should be well aware of.

IN WESTERN COURTS YOU CANNOT CONVICT SOMEONE ON CIRCUMSTANCIAL EVIDENCE.

For someone who speaks so condescendingly about Western jurisprudence, you sure as hell don't know alot about it. In Western courts you can do exactly that. People have been sent to the gas chamber on nothing more than circumstantial evidence. It's not the fact that it is or is not circumstantial evidence, but the quality of the evidence that will convict.
 

Obcession

Junior Member
If that’s the case then lets see better evidence of Kadeer's guilt.

That's not necessary, I think most people here believe it's not Kadeer. However, to argue that the ordinary Chinese does not understand western jurisprudence is an insult. Frankly I think you underestimate the ordinary Chinese's intelligence.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
For someone who speaks so condescendingly about Western jurisprudence, you sure as hell don't know alot about it. In Western courts you can do exactly that. People have been sent to the gas chamber on nothing more than circumstantial evidence. It's not the fact that it is or is not circumstantial evidence, but the quality of the evidence that will convict.
Are you sure there wasn't any primary evidence offered as well?
Well the ones I'm familiar with, the judgement is overturned because of an over reliance of circumstantial evidence.(I suppose it depends on how good ones defence counsel is)

In this situation you are trying to convince the West so as you say 'Quality' is paramount.and in this case the evidence consisted of conjecture as well.

The main point of my post is that if China wants to avoid being the butt of criticism from the West, in its accusations of Kadeer, then quality evidence it has to be. Because she said the type of incident that had occured in Tibet should be replicated in Xinjiang, does not mean she plotted for it to happen.
 
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Schumacher

Senior Member
Well the ones I'm familiar with, the judgement is overturned because of an over reliance of circumstantial evidence.(I suppose it depends on how good ones defence counsel is)

In this situation you are trying to convince the West so as you say 'Quality' is paramount.and in this case the evidence consisted of conjecture as well.

The main point of my post is that if China wants to avoid being the butt of criticism from the West, in its accusations of Kadeer, then quality evidence it has to be. Because she said the type of incident that had occured in Tibet should be replicated in Xinjiang, does not mean she plotted for it to happen.

Actually, the last thing China should learn from the West is how its law/enforcement systems deal with minorities. Take Australia for example, the Aboriginal imprisonment rate is much higher than the population at large. And worse, they suffer a high death rate while in prison.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Actually, the last thing China should learn from the West is how its law/enforcement systems deal with minorities. Take Australia for example, the Aboriginal imprisonment rate is much higher than the population at large. And worse, they suffer a high death rate while in prison.

Aboriginies have been badly treated since day one.

The Police and Law enforcement is a pretty mixed bag right across Australia, but some of the terrible ones have shown a remarkable improvement since the '80's
 

Obcession

Junior Member
.

I was merely pointing out the weakness in the evidence offered when I asked, however my sincere apologies in the tone of my post

Thank you, much appreciated.

Actually, the last thing China should learn from the West is how its law/enforcement systems deal with minorities. Take Australia for example, the Aboriginal imprisonment rate is much higher than the population at large. And worse, they suffer a high death rate while in prison.

I agree, and I think China has been rather lenient on the minorities. Take the native reserves system in Canada for example. Native Indians live in crowded quarters, often without running water, lack of sanitation, and schools, hospitals are often unavailable on the reserves or of a low quality. Alcoholism and drug abuse, unemployment are rampant on these reserves.

Whereas China offers preferential treatment to minorities. Even those who have been fully integrated into Han society, such as most Manchus, are given special privileges such as exemption from the one-child policy, certain tax exemption, and preferential placement in universities. This has harbored resentment from some Han Chinese, and indeed I think this state-sponsored affirmative action is unjust. This means if I got 560 on the Gaokao, and a Manchu got 550, he's more likely to be admitted to university than me!
 

Wolverine

Banned Idiot
Are you sure there wasn't any primary evidence offered as well?
Well the ones I'm familiar with, the judgement is overturned because of an over reliance of circumstantial evidence.(I suppose it depends on how good ones defence counsel is)

In this situation you are trying to convince the West so as you say 'Quality' is paramount.and in this case the evidence consisted of conjecture as well.

The main point of my post is that if China wants to avoid being the butt of criticism from the West, in its accusations of Kadeer, then quality evidence it has to be. Because she said the type of incident that had occured in Tibet should be replicated in Xinjiang, does not mean she plotted for it to happen.

I am not speaking about the Kadeer accusation so much as pointing out that you need a great deal more humility in this discussion, especially when it's clear you don't seem to grasp some of the basics of the discussion like the ability of circumstantial evidence to result in the death penalty. I think that before you question any more Chinese people about their knowledge of Western law, you should open up a browser and type "death penalty" and "circumstantial evidence" and start teaching yourself.

Let me help you out. This is the very first hit on Google:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


There are other and better examples all over the internet.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
There are a number of elements which stand out in the Urumqi incident:
1) The "rioting" on July 5th has very much the look of a planned military assault, and not something that somehow "evolved" out of the protest that evening. In fact, it is reported that the violence began at several different points in the city simultaneously at around 8pm. There was plenty of police at the protest, but there were few or no police where the rampage took place. Over 150 people were killed and 200 fires were set, plus over 1000 people badly injured. You cannot do this kind of damage without some preparation and I think even training in the case of arson. It also requires the rioters to bring such things as metal pipes or bats and maybe gasoline, for example. The rioters were prepared for what they did, and they acted in a cold-blooded way. People had their throats slit, women were bludgeoned to death, buses were set on fire with people inside. On the other hand, handout photos given out by Uighur anti-Chinese organizations of the "peaceful protest" prior to the violence do not show any such obvious equipment. Nor do any photos of this 6pm protest show any "clash with the authorities".
2) The two actions, protest and riot, were planned as two parts of one action. The events, both the protest at 6pm and the "rioting" at 8pm as well as attacks against Chinese representative offices in other countries, were planned through cell phone and Internet networking in the days leading up to July 5th. In fact the relatively late hour for the demonstration allowed the associated assault to take place under cover of the night. The protest also served as a diversion to cover the real damage being inflicted.
3) The Uighur separatists are trying to follow a Tibetan model. It is a species of copy-cat crime. There is a "peaceful protest" followed by rioting. In both cases, the rioting apparently starts on some cue, inexplicable to outside witnesses. In both cases there is an office outside of China which somehow has a script prepared for the press as soon as the story breaks: "it was a peaceful protest followed by a violent crackdown by the authorities, and this led to widespread anger and rioting." In the news reports, this is followed by "explanations" regarding conditions in China's minority regions, about discrimination, cultural "genocide", the "seething anger", etc. In the case of Tibet, the script included an instant body count of 200, while today the media simply insinuates that the reported casualties were caused by the "repressive regime".
4) In the case of the protests last year, the "foreign office" in question is the Dalai Lama's office in India (Dharmsala) and its ally, Campaign for Tibet. This office, of course, is led by the "spiritual leader of the Tibetan people" the Dalai Lama himself. This year, the obligatory news contact for the Western media is the office of the World Uighur Congress, led by Rebiya Kadeer, in Washington, DC. This woman is being referred to as "our spiritual mother" and her organization is being touted as some sort of umbrella for Uighur groups internationally.
5) In both cases, the Western media accepts the script virtually without question. Neither in the case of Tibet last year, or Xinjiang now is there any evidence of violence by the authorities. None of the photos or videos show this, nor the nature of the injuries (no bullet holes). In the case of Tibet last year, anti-Chinese U-tubers had to resort to using imagery from Nepal to show physical repression, and yet, in videos I saw of the "peaceful protest", one could make out plenty of people with cell-phone cameras or regular digital cameras taking pictures and videos.

Bladerunner, I don't know exactly what part of this was planned and directed by Rebiya Kadeer, but I do know that her office played an important role in this overall script, and that at least they acted as someone who is well aware of the plans and what their part is in these plans. It is obvious also that they were quite inspired by the riots in Tibet last year, and their potential for "doing damage" to China, which this woman reportedly relishes. As well, she refuses to disassociate herself from the events. I don't know if any of this would count as "evidence" of whatever particular crime she could be charged with legally, but I know that the Chinese government is making a POLITICAL statement about this, and not a legal one, and that under the circumstances it is hard to argue that certain other states in the world are aiding and abetting this kind of injury to China by harboring people like her.
 
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