CV-16 Liaoning (001 carrier) Thread II ...News, Views and operations

[Arienai]

CV-16 is good for carrier training make no mistake its a fighting warships with 24 x J15 and 16 x Helicopters it can do alot of damage

CV-17 its sister ship can add the same, very powerful so now thats 48 x J15 and 32 x Helicopters

Off course China does not have 48 x J15 and 32 x Helicopters but you get my point

however if we move on to 003 which could carry 36 x J15 and 14 x helicopters thats a very good cover at sea, you do a-lot with 36 aircraft over a ocean, sea intercept , land attack and air to air engagements all spectrum of missions to ensure maritime security

all 3 carriers put to sea at the same time is possible since CV-16 and CV-17 have ski jumps thats 84 x aircraft and a good array of helicopters

not all the carrier helicopters will be detected to hunting submarines since they have 2 x LHD now too

Well J15s are way too big. If the next generation fighter is indeed based on FC-31 then a carrier should carry more (like 50% more actually, somebody did the math on this already).

And the 075s are not designed with hunting submarines in mind... In fact they won't even be in the CSG for the vast majority of the time. They are powered by Diesel only and that's bad for ASW already... And their speed can't quite keep up with the CSG. There's a reason why PLAN are going to make a new class of frigates for the future CSG instead of just using the 054As. The one ship in the CSG that can't hit 30 knots should be the one AOE only. 075s have their own jobs and they'll do just fine on those, ASW is not one of them...

In fact I kind of like the ideal of having a COGAG heli carrier like the Izumo class (30 knots max speed) for ASW, but with actual carriers already in service I doubt PLAN would make one of those. However, if PLAN decide to make their future LHDs COGAG or anything, that they are fast enough and doesn't have the low frequency noise of the usual diesel powered ships, their ASW ability would be very interesting to see.

But, put my personal fantasy aside... A future CSG with a carrier, 2 055s (2 Z20s each), 2 or more of the new frigates (1 Z20 each), and maybe even one of the rumored 全能舰(not sure how to translate this XD), can easily have around 10-15 heli for ASW. Plus the 1-2 subs in the water, they'll do just fine for ASW. I don't think making a 30+ knots LHD or even a heli carrier is needed. I mean if they feel they need more heli for a specific operation, the carriers can do that easily as well XD.

And if they decide to go nuts they can just put multiple carriers in one group...

 

[foxmulder_ms]

Of course they don't when Chinese carriers have no enough aircrafts to fill them. And even if they do, one Nimitz is definitly as strong as 2-3 Liaonings.
Even with J-35, US have F-35. And 100s of them allready.

1 vs 1 comparison is absurd. Cost difference is probably 3-4 fold.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Well J15s are way too big. If the next generation fighter is indeed based on FC-31 then a carrier should carry more (like 50% more actually, somebody did the math on this already).

And the 075s are not designed with hunting submarines in mind... In fact they won't even be in the CSG for the vast majority of the time. They are powered by Diesel only and that's bad for ASW already... And their speed can't quite keep up with the CSG. There's a reason why PLAN are going to make a new class of frigates for the future CSG instead of just using the 054As. The one ship in the CSG that can't hit 30 knots should be the one AOE only. 075s have their own jobs and they'll do just fine on those, ASW is not one of them...

In fact I kind of like the ideal of having a COGAG heli carrier like the Izumo class (30 knots max speed) for ASW, but with actual carriers already in service I doubt PLAN would make one of those. However, if PLAN decide to make their future LHDs COGAG or anything, that they are fast enough and doesn't have the low frequency noise of the usual diesel powered ships, their ASW ability would be very interesting to see.

But, put my personal fantasy aside... A future CSG with a carrier, 2 055s (2 Z20s each), 2 or more of the new frigates (1 Z20 each), and maybe even one of the rumored 全能舰(not sure how to translate this XD), can easily have around 10-15 heli for ASW. Plus the 1-2 subs in the water, they'll do just fine for ASW. I don't think making a 30+ knots LHD or even a heli carrier is needed. I mean if they feel they need more heli for a specific operation, the carriers can do that easily as well XD.

And if they decide to go nuts they can just put multiple carriers in one group...

I don't see why type 75 cannot hunt sub and why the LHD has to have 30 knots? That is why you have the helicopter. They are the one that hunt the submarine and not the ship. I see this faulty logic here in the forum and it is wrong Japanese LHD are design for anti submarine warfare witht their ability to carry large number of ASW helicopter

Nuclear submarine has theoretical speed of 30 Knots but they only used it for transit mode. In hunting mode that kind of speed will exacerbate hydrodynamic noise from the hull flexing and they will be easily detected. You want stealth in hunting mode and most likely they will reduce the speed to 17 knot max!
In most cases they will switch off their diesel or turbine power and run on electric motor and battery since motor are quiet!

So yeah LHD can be a good ASW complement for cbg !

 

[asif iqbal]

LHD never hunts a sub its the helicopter on the LHD which hunts the sub, goddess me why am I even explaining this stuff

 

[Intrepid]

I remember, that in the past it was a big issue to convert an attack carrier into an anti submarine warfare carrier.

 

[Arienai]

LHD never hunts a sub its the helicopter on the LHD which hunts the sub, goddess me why am I even explaining this stuff

That's what I thought when I didn't dig deeper into ASW too.

Hunting sub is complicated, modern CSG (well basically I mean the USN and later the PLAN CSG) have 3 layers for ASW (for even more, if you count the rocket launchers on the 054As and other older ships, new ones won't have that though). The outer layer is for sure the heli, they are indeed effective, but there's more to that.

075s can indeed carry a bunch of ASW helis, and they can provide a very effective range and efficiency. But ASW is not as simple as Area air defense, that a radar can detect air subjects within a area very easily (even stealth objects have a decent range to be detacted by the AESA on the 055s, 052Ds and the carriers), but a sonar will not guarantee it will find a sub is within its range.

Sorry I didn't made it clear in the original post, but when I said all ships in CSG should be "30+ knots" is not because they need to be at 30+ knots for ASW (in fact they can be way slower than that). What I mean was there's need for the entire group to move at 30+ knots in a lot of different situations (for example, when the launching air crafts, the carrier should be at 30+ knots to increase the wind on the deck). And that's why I said 075s are not quite fast enough for the CSG. I didn't mean they can't be in the CSG because they are too slow for ASW...

When the navy groups are hunting subs, they actually move slowly most of the time, since when the sonars are doing their jobs, you want to limit the noise from yourself as well... (Being about to move fast and get into positions faster is still a great bonus, and the next class frigates will have that ability as well, but with helis, it's not as important as the old days, like WWII) And that's a area 075s are bad for ASW. Diesel engines have a low-frequency noise (from vibration), and for larger ones like the ones used in 075s, it's very hard (I wouldn't go as far as say it's impossible) to limit that. And that's why I said if the PLAN decide to make a new class of LHD that's COGAG or something, its ASW ability will be very interesting to see.

China's most possible scenario of a war would be Taiwan, and that's the real job for the 075s. With a bunch of ASW helis they could still be decent for ASW, but with flaws. And with the speed they're pumping these 075s out, I doubt they did anything specific to make it better at ASW (like reducing the noise from those 4 big diesel engines).

And even if they are still decent for ASW... We are talking about inside a CSG, and the biggest problem they face is not the diesel engine noise... but to keep up with the carrier.

 

[Arienai]

I don't see why type 75 cannot hunt sub and why the LHD has to have 30 knots? That is why you have the helicopter. They are the one that hunt the submarine and not the ship. I see this faulty logic here in the forum and it is wrong Japanese LHD are design for anti submarine warfare witht their ability to carry large number of ASW helicopter

Nuclear submarine has theoretical speed of 30 Knots but they only used it for transit mode. In hunting mode that kind of speed will exacerbate hydrodynamic noise from the hull flexing and they will be easily detected. You want stealth in hunting mode and most likely they will reduce the speed to 17 knot max!
In most cases they will switch off their diesel or turbine power and run on electric motor and battery since motor are quiet!

So yeah LHD can be a good ASW complement for cbg !

I talked about "why 30 knots" in my new post replying to asif iqbal.

Sorry I didn't make it clear in the original post, I didn't mean LHD need to be 30+ knots for ASW... I was trying to say they need 30 knots to be in the CSG.

 

[Blitzo]

I talked about "why 30 knots" in my new post replying to asif iqbal.

Sorry I didn't make it clear in the original post, I didn't mean LHD need to be 30+ knots for ASW... I was trying to say they need 30 knots to be in the CSG.

There's no need for you to apologize IMO, I don't think anyone should have expected what you wrote as suggesting that an LHD needed to be 30+ knots to perform ASW, you were pretty clear in what you wrote.


If you want an LHD to conduct ASW alongside an SAG or CSG whose top speed is 30+ knots, you require the LHD to achieve that speed as well, because if your LHD is unable to keep up with the task force then its helicopters can't be deployed alongside the group.


075 is unsuited to be an ASW carrier as part of a SAG or CSG or any other task force that is designed to normally achieve top speeds of 30+ knots, simply because it won't be able to keep up with the task force when it deploys and moves from area to area.
If your LHD is unable to keep up with the rest of the ships, then it is not able to deploy its ASW helicopters to where it needs to be, quite simple really.

 

[Sczepan]

….

What I mean was there's need for the entire group to move at 30+ knots in a lot of different situations (for example, when the launching air crafts, the carrier should be at 30+ knots to increase the wind on the deck). And that's why I said 075s are not quite fast enough for the CSG. I didn't mean they can't be in the CSG because they are too slow for ASW...
...
Diesel engines have a low-frequency noise (from vibration), and for larger ones like the ones used in 075s, it's very hard (I wouldn't go as far as say it's impossible) to limit that. And that's why I said if the PLAN decide to make a new class of LHD that's COGAG or something, its ASW ability will be very interesting to see.

China's most possible scenario of a war would be Taiwan, and that's the real job for the 075s. With a bunch of ASW helis they could still be decent for ASW, but with flaws. And with the speed they're pumping these 075s out, I doubt they did anything specific to make it better at ASW (like reducing the noise from those 4 big diesel engines).

And even if they are still decent for ASW... We are talking about inside a CSG, and the biggest problem they face is not the diesel engine noise... but to keep up with the carrier.

why that? In the old days (WW II) "Admiral Graf Spee" have had

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Speed:	28.5 Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content! (52.8 km/h; 32.8 mph)

which means: Their top speed of 28 knots (52 km/h; 32 mph) left only the few

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in the Anglo-French navies fast enough and powerful enough to sink them.
See also

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....
Twelve cylinders, whose linings alone weigh eight tonnes each, sit ready to accelerate the ship to speeds of nearly 30 knots (55kph). They make the Beaumont and her six sister ships, built to rush Chinese goods to the US east coast, the world’s fastest modern container vessels.

and additional:

Why shouldn't chinese Ingeneers top this?

 

[Arienai]

why that? In the old days (WW II) "Admiral Graf Spee" have had

8 × Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Speed:	28.5 Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content! (52.8 km/h; 32.8 mph)

which means: Their top speed of 28 knots (52 km/h; 32 mph) left only the few

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in the Anglo-French navies fast enough and powerful enough to sink them.
See also

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and additional:

Why shouldn't chinese Ingeneers top this?

I mean it's already known that 075s are using 4 * 16PC2-6B diesel engines with 65,000 hp in total... And the max speed is around 25 knots.