Chinese semiconductor industry


krautmeister

New Member
Registered Member
This raise my interest on learning optical physics, what kind of course or major that dwelled this knowledge?
This is mostly high level knowledge, it doesn't require advanced learning or degrees just because I thought of it. If you look at how LPP EUV generates the light source, zapping a plasma cloud by laser will create a diffuse EUV flash that by definition will be inefficient no matter how many mirrors you use to try focusing that light. The more mirrors you use to focus the light, the more EUV is absorbed by the optics. On top of that, LPP EUV light outputs a lot of essentially useless light on the UV spectrum. Cymer tried overcoming these disadvantages by increasing the source power but there is only so much EUV power that can be generated via LPP.

Imo, LPP EUV is far inferior to SSMB EUV for these reasons because a synchrotron driven light source, which is what SSMB essentially is, can be ramped up dramatically measured in equivalent source power of thousands of watts in the future. Not immediately, not soon, but eventually. The laser like nature of SSMB EUV light also contributes to using fewer mirrors, less diffraction of EUV light/power and is a much more controllable and narrow spectrum light source. It's not just a superior EUV light source, it can and probably will affect other aspects of a lithograph machine such as photoresist development, dual stage processes, etc.

When you think about how this all comes to together, you realize that this has the potential to drive giga sized fab plants that would dwarf what exists today. The issue is the development time. This is still ongoing research but it has already been publicly stated that such research is for creating a lithography machine sometime by this decade, but a decade is a long time.
 

latenlazy

Colonel
This is mostly high level knowledge, it doesn't require advanced learning or degrees just because I thought of it. If you look at how LPP EUV generates the light source, zapping a plasma cloud by laser will create a diffuse EUV flash that by definition will be inefficient no matter how many mirrors you use to try focusing that light. The more mirrors you use to focus the light, the more EUV is absorbed by the optics. On top of that, LPP EUV light outputs a lot of essentially useless light on the UV spectrum. Cymer tried overcoming these disadvantages by increasing the source power but there is only so much EUV power that can be generated via LPP.

Imo, LPP EUV is far inferior to SSMB EUV for these reasons because a synchrotron driven light source, which is what SSMB essentially is, can be ramped up dramatically measured in equivalent source power of thousands of watts in the future. Not immediately, not soon, but eventually. The laser like nature of SSMB EUV light also contributes to using fewer mirrors, less diffraction of EUV light/power and is a much more controllable and narrow spectrum light source. It's not just a superior EUV light source, it can and probably will affect other aspects of a lithograph machine such as photoresist development, dual stage processes, etc.

When you think about how this all comes to together, you realize that this has the potential to drive giga sized fab plants that would dwarf what exists today. The issue is the development time. This is still ongoing research but it has already been publicly stated that such research is for creating a lithography machine sometime by this decade, but a decade is a long time.
You’re forgetting a key component of the manufacturing equation, which is cost. Synchrotrons’s are not cheap. This may not be an industrially scalable piece of technology. Even if it weren’t prohibitively expensive though, complexity of the technology might be prohibitive to industrial use. A technology can’t just deliver on basic performance metrics if it wants to have meaningful application in industry. It must be serviceable and reliable, and durable enough to be used for countless work hours. Even if this basic technology is viable in concept all of those industrial performance factors will take a lot of development time to turn it into a piece of commercial equipment. I highly doubt you’d see this deployed in 5 years.
 

ansy1968

Captain
Registered Member
You’re forgetting a key component of the manufacturing equation, which is cost. Synchrotrons’s are not cheap. This may not be an industrially scalable piece of technology. Even if it weren’t prohibitively expensive though, complexity of the technology might be prohibitive to industrial use. A technology can’t just deliver on basic performance metrics if it wants to have meaningful application in industry. It must be serviceable and reliable, and durable enough to be used for countless work hours. Even if this basic technology is viable in concept all of those industrial performance factors will take a lot of development time to turn it into a piece of commercial equipment. I highly doubt you’d see this deployed in 5 years.
@latenlazy Sir from information @Skywatcher gave the Shanghai Synchrotron cost the same as 1 ASML NXE3400C EUVL machine.

Construction[
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]​

It has a circumference of 432 metres, and is designed to operate at 3.5
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, the highest energy of any synchrotron other than the Big Three facilities
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in Hyōgo Prefecture, Japan,
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in Grenoble, France and
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at Argonne National labs, United States. It will initially have eight beamlines.

The particle accelerator cost 1.2 billion
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(
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176 million). It is China's biggest light facility.
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It is located under a building with a futuristic snail-shaped roof.

The synchrotron opened to universities, scientific institutes and companies for approved research in May 2009.
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  • Dec. 2004 - Sept. 2006: Building construction
  • Jun. 2005 - Mar. 2008: Accelerator equipment and components manufacture and assembly
  • Dec. 2005 - Dec. 2008: Beamline construction and assembly
  • Apr. 2007 - Jul. 2007: Linac commissioning
  • Oct. 2007 - Mar. 2008: Booster commissioning
  • Apr. 2008 - Oct. 2008: Storage ring commissioning
  • Nov. 2008 - Mar. 2009: ID Beamline commissioning
  • Apr. 2009: The SSRF operation begins
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SleepyStudent

Junior Member
Registered Member
2021. 3 smee 28nm samples
2022 to 2023 28nm production around 15 to 20 sets.
2024 smee 14nm projected

7nm nothing heard on that yet.

We also don't know what cetc capable on its 35nm duv.

Euv 2025 maybe

By 2025 China should established fully 28nm Indeginous, the country can function without any western tech.

It's one of the key elements needed for operation Taiwan Unification. China may got fully sanctioned and get kick out of dollar system.


28nm and digital yuan ! The baseline.
Thanks. Why would it be if the 1.35NA SMEE ArFi could get down to 28nm, could it not multipattern down to 7nm as is the case with the TSMC N7/ASML NXT:1980i? Seems to be fairly intuitive to me though I haven't worked in this space for a while.

And then the wait for EUVL is >=2025, I guess but by then, China would have caught up with the global frontier, or at least only be one high-NA optics set short as high-NA EUVL is the end.
 

latenlazy

Colonel
@latenlazy Sir from information @Skywatcher gave the Shanghai Synchrotron cost the same as 1 ASML NXE3400C EUVL machine.

Construction[
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
]​

It has a circumference of 432 metres, and is designed to operate at 3.5
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, the highest energy of any synchrotron other than the Big Three facilities
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Hyōgo Prefecture, Japan,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in Grenoble, France and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
at Argonne National labs, United States. It will initially have eight beamlines.

The particle accelerator cost 1.2 billion
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
176 million). It is China's biggest light facility.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
It is located under a building with a futuristic snail-shaped roof.

The synchrotron opened to universities, scientific institutes and companies for approved research in May 2009.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


  • Dec. 2004 - Sept. 2006: Building construction
  • Jun. 2005 - Mar. 2008: Accelerator equipment and components manufacture and assembly
  • Dec. 2005 - Dec. 2008: Beamline construction and assembly
  • Apr. 2007 - Jul. 2007: Linac commissioning
  • Oct. 2007 - Mar. 2008: Booster commissioning
  • Apr. 2008 - Oct. 2008: Storage ring commissioning
  • Nov. 2008 - Mar. 2009: ID Beamline commissioning
  • Apr. 2009: The SSRF operation begins
    Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
That’s *just* the cost of the synchrotron, not a whole lithography system, and it may not even have the output level or consistency or frequency of operations that would qualify it for effective commercial use.
 

ansy1968

Captain
Registered Member
That’s *just* the cost of the synchrotron, not a whole lithography system, and it may not even have the output level or consistency or frequency of operations that would qualify it for effective commercial use.
@latenlazy Sir from reading the post of @krautmeister I see merits in his suggestion of having One Industrialized synchrotrons powering multiple Lithograph EUV machine, maybe by using this kind of method the cost may be lowered? Sir forgive me for being a nuisance but from what I learned the major factor in ASML EUVL being so expensive is because of Cymer LPP power sources. Take that away from the equation and maybe having 12 EUV with a single power source maybe more effective?
 

krautmeister

New Member
Registered Member
You’re forgetting a key component of the manufacturing equation, which is cost. Synchrotrons’s are not cheap. This may not be an industrially scalable piece of technology. Even if it weren’t prohibitively expensive though, complexity of the technology might be prohibitive to industrial use. A technology can’t just deliver on basic performance metrics if it wants to have meaningful application in industry. It must be serviceable and reliable, and durable enough to be used for countless work hours. Even if this basic technology is viable in concept all of those industrial performance factors will take a lot of development time to turn it into a piece of commercial equipment. I highly doubt you’d see this deployed in 5 years.
Agreed, but I do think the potential is super high because the nature of the light source makes hypothetical maintenance of such a machine superior to existing EUV lithography which is maintenance intensive due to frequent maintenance related to mirror replacement and calibration caused by the aforementioned diffuse EUV light from LPP. There is also the hypothetical improvement and simplification of photoresist development, use and wafer cleaning because of the probable much higher power and narrow band EUV.

Despite this, I agree it comes down to how much this can be scaled. That's why I speculate they will try developing some kind of multi-exposure dual staged litho machine that can process upwards of 10+ wafers simultaneously from a single synchrotron. Otherwise, yes it wouldn't be cost effective and excessive.
 

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