Chinese Engine Development


Xsizor

Captain
Registered Member
I think some people needs to chill for a moment. (Not towards the above article bt people talking about battle with the US in another thread)



It&s actually nothing new we known about this for a while now. It's not about the future but where we stand now.
From the article you cited -

Initial production models of China’s latest J-20 stealth fighter used the upgraded WS-10B,
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.

Do you think this statement is factually correct?

J-20 is also unable to supercruise, meaning it must use afterburner to reach supersonic speeds. China’s premier air superiority fighter will struggle to keep up with its 5th generation contemporaries until the situation is rectified.

How many 5th generation fighter jets can actively supercruise? How many active production 5th Gen Fighter jets are there in fact? To me, there exists only three - F22, F35 and J20.
Of these only F22 and J20 are designed to be supercruise. Only F22 can do supercruise.
Edit : F22 isn't "active" production. Until and unless they bring back the whole tooling and production line with a token 10-20 Billion investment.



I've been hearing about Ball point pens, China and the equations it tries desperately to make up to point at China's supposed lag with overall tech development for long.
It's is as tiring as hearing Japan is "high tech" while still being reliant on Fax machines and a society that hasn't moved much from the peak of 1980s Bubble Era.

Maybe the author Lewin Day should stick with reporting on Cheap electronics and Home Appliances.
 
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SamuraiBlue

Captain
I've been hearing about Ball point pens, China and the equations it tries desperately to make up to point at China's supposed lag with overall tech development for long.
It's is as tiring as hearing Japan is "high tech" while still being reliant on Fax machines and a society that hasn't moved much from the peak of 1980s Bubble Era.
Yeah , yeah once PRC is able to develop composites like CMC, Transparent Ceramic and/or, High modulus Carbon fiber like HR40 (which was all developed independently by Japan) then we may listen but till then its all bark with no bite.
 

ougoah

Colonel
Registered Member
Yeah , yeah once PRC is able to develop composites like CMC, Transparent Ceramic and/or, High modulus Carbon fiber like HR40 (which was all developed independently by Japan) then we may listen but till then its all bark with no bite.

I think his point was to say that China not being able to make ball bearings suitable and cost effective enough for cheap/affordable ballpoint pens is not indicative of anything. It's like saying Germany doesn't have a real space industry and comprehensive set of space technologies so therefore Germany must be a technologically weak nation. A totally foolish thing.

China never had a reason to develop a suitable and cost effective ballpoint steel bearing. It only took 5 years to achieve similar results when they did bother only due to some sort of political/ego motivation. The real engineering challenge here was controlling costs and creating a manufacturing program that was as cost and resource efficient as those from where the bearings were sourced. Making ballpoint bearings is easy as piss if you really want to do it without consideration for finances. There are plenty of high end Chinese bearings for other industrial applications which are pretty much on par with the best albeit at almost equal costs. It's just difficult to achieve a certain consistency and low failure rate under a certain price. Ironically this is how China dominates so many areas of manufacturing over other technologically capable countries - it offers the best net balance. When it came to ballpoint bearings, that just happened to be one area where non-Chinese sources were superior. There are plenty of other examples.

Chinese didn't make ballpoint bearings, Switzerland doesn't make GIS/GNS systems, Japan doesn't make nuclear weapons, Russia doesn't make high end IC, France doesn't make supercomputers etc etc... I think the ballpoint bearing analogy used by the author of that article misses the point entirely especially considering how he applied it. Okay maybe the idea was to say that engines aren't quite an engineering problem equivalent to controlling the cost of ballpoint bearings. Still I think you missed Xsizor's point. Japan is a technologically capable nation (consistently a leader) and yet there are situations where it can be made to seem otherwise such as the prevalence of cassette tapes and other "strange" anachronisms. We all know it would be foolish and untrue to use that as some sort of evidence that Japan isn't a tech dominant nation. Similarly talking about China's past "inability" to make ballpoint bearings is stupidly misunderstanding why. Surely it's at least been proven it wasn't an issue of ability but rather one of simple economics.

Anyway how any of this truly is useful for presenting his points about difficulty manufacturing engines is lost on me. Probably why I'm not a journalist who's writing about things he's got no business understanding. I'm sure publications can find engineers who can write these articles. Maybe those guys just have much better and worthwhile things to do :p
 
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Yeah , yeah once PRC is able to develop composites like CMC, Transparent Ceramic and/or, High modulus Carbon fiber like HR40 (which was all developed independently by Japan) then we may listen but till then its all bark with no bite.
Oh please, everything Japan does is under the permission and as a vassal of the United States. Japan got a head start by rolling over (but then again, it didn't have much of a choice). When Japan put up a small economic challenge to the US, it was crushed like a potato chip. Regardless of your few cherry-picked examples, not the US, not the EU, nobody finds Japanese tech alarming today because it is like a settled old man. Meanwhile, the Western world tosses and turns with panic and helpless angst, often causing internal harm with its desperation, at the rise of Chinese technology expanding like a young forest with new sprouts and surprises blooming everyday. So save the bark for yourself; it is for a leashed country like Japan. When China softly clears its throat, the world trembles at the roar.
 
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ougoah

Colonel
Registered Member
Japan sees China as the communist peril and presented as a threat almost in the league of North Korea. China considers Japan an extension of the US when it comes to foreign policy and containment. It would benefit both if these half-truths were more properly thought through and reversed. If Europe could get over their centuries/millennia of warring and bad blood, so too can Asians. China and Japan already have a somewhat functional trade relationship, off of which politics is partially built.

Japan remains the only real regional military challenge to China (India not so much and South Korea not positioned in the way Japan is) but if it can be demonstrated and convinced that China's overall rise would not be at the danger and loss for Japan and its interests (as long as Japan no longer carry any ambitions of dominating Asia), China would be able to persuade its main military threat against working for the Americans. We're a long way away from where modern day France and Germany are but the intentions are there despite flare ups. At least from the Chinese side because the CCP would like nothing more than a friendly and neutral Japan who can be written off as a non-thread if things were to properly escalate with the US. While many aspects are working and improving, the two nations are still weary of each other and both have ambitions. This isn't even counting the Koreas. I personally respect Korean and Japanese technology innovation and it would surely be ideal if the three can get along and cooperate in certain ways more than we are doing now. Of course there are many issues and finger pointing going around but if this were to ever happen, everyone would witness the US move to implement an entire east Asian Plaza Accord 2.0, many times more aggressive than how they played Japan in the 80s and 90s.
 

Xsizor

Captain
Registered Member
Since Engines are what we are discussing here, it is quite important to understand about Fiber reinforced Ceramic Matrix Composite. CFR CMC.

A FR CMC can be seen as analogue to (steel) Reinforced Concrete.
Here the fibers are used to enhance the Z directional strength of the ceramic and therefore could be used extensively in the core components of the Engines as it combines extreme thermal tolerance, strength for the weight

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ougoah

Colonel
Registered Member
Why are we entertaining this guy...anyone who can perform a google search will know that China has companies that make CMCs and that a lot of these materials are becoming pretty mature...

The whole thing was born out of Samurai Blue's misunderstanding of Xsizor. Anyway Samurai's post was to make the point that Japan was the first to innovate and produce these materials and maybe he's not aware China can fabricate some or all of them now along with materials the Japanese most likely don't have.

I don't think anyone truly believes Japan wasn't and isn't a tech superpower. It's not alarming people as Man said but that's not entirely true. Japanese innovations in auto still alarm the Germans and have recently left German internal combustion and drivetrain technology in the dust. Japanese military may not be alarming anyone with their own MIC but if their nationalists got their way, it would and should be very alarming to many. Japan may not be the only consumer electronics and gizmo superpower of the 90s and 00s anymore, replaced by Koreans and Chinese now but that's quite a narrow selection.
 

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