Chinese Engine Development


ILikeChina

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Nein!!! The mods limited his posts' visibility to himself only.

I skimmed through that thread before it got censored, I'll collate the bits of info I could remember.
  • WS-10 has at least six variants
    • WS-10 original
    • WS-10B for J-10 series
    • WS-10D for J-16 and Flanker series - closely related to WS-10B
    • WS-10H with H standing for 海 or sea
    • WS-10IPE - 14t thrust variant
    • WS-10J with J standing for 舰载 or shipboard, AKA carrier aircraft engines
  • Both the manufacturer and customer lost enthusiasm for the WS-10B so while it exists and is undergoing certification, there's no impetus to adopt it on J-10s
    • Gongke101 believes it's because the number of J-10s equipped with AL-31s have already formed a critical mass and a switch to WS-10s would encounter significant systemic inertia
  • WS-10H was the former name of the WS-10J but is now the name of the variant used on PLANAF J-11Bs
  • WS-10J is the variant designed for J-15s; he mentioned something about the outlook of this variant but I forgot what he said
  • When asked about the announcement about the WS-15 achieving design certification in 3 to 5 years, Gongke101 said it was very possible because he hasn't heard any bad news about the WS-15 lately
How is this post from two years ago relevant to news from these days?
We know that one WS-10 engine is called WS-10C. WS-10C is IPE?
 

Figaro

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How is this post from two years ago relevant to news from these days?
We know that one WS-10 engine is called WS-10C. WS-10C is IPE?
Apparently Pupu just said that the next batch of J-20s will feature thrust enhanced Taihangs (the 14.5 tonne variant?) and that a new 16 tonne WS-10 variant was being developed. As for the designations, Pupu said the WS-10B had roughly 14 tonnes of thrust, not sure about the others.

As for the WS-15, the only news we got was that it entered flight tests on an aircraft that wasn't the J-20 (probably the J-11) back in April of last year. Haven't heard anything since ... hopefully no news means good news.

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Figaro

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Does anyone have the PLA requirement for WS-15? Then the dimensions and performance criteria maybe? also, the afterburner petals look shorter than what the CG videos about Taihang had shown.
Block I refers to the 4th generation single engine fighter's thrust requirement (170 kN to 180 kN) while Block H refers to the 4th generation double engine fighter's requirement (150 kN to 160 kN). Basically, these are the PLA's "requirements" for the WS-15, at least in terms of thrust rating. Note these are old design specifications from 2004 and the requirements may have gone up quite a bit given the large progress of the Chinese gas turbine industry.
Screen Shot 2020-07-17 at 3.42.18 AM.png
Original Paper :
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Figaro

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This is a rather interesting post I just found, originating in 2017. The author says the the WS-15 has a thrust between 17 and 18 tons based on a flow rate (流量) of roughly 137 kg/s and an unit flow rate (单位流量) of between 1.25 to 1.3 kgf/kgs typical of 4th generation aeroengines. Apparently, he extrapolated the 137 kg/s figure from this table published by the 624th Institute back in 2011, which he believes is in reference to data collected during the WS-15 core's high altitude testing. My Chinese is not good so if I left out any of the details, please do point out. Also, does anyone know how he got to the 137 kg/s figure from the table, since his description does not specify the calculation method.

1.jpg
H represents altitude 0, M represents speed 0, Ga represents intake air flow, state (状态) represents 100% speed, and T1 represents afterburner temperature.

His accompanying description in Chinese for reference : 表格中只要看最下面一行就行了,H代表高度0,M代表速度0,Ga表示进气流量,状态代表100%的转速,T1代表加力温度。上面那篇论文的时间是2011年,作者是燃气涡轮院的,当时WS15正处于验证机研制的阶段,因此相应的数据也就是在处于研制阶段的WS15验证机在高空台上的试验点。验证机阶段国内是按照原型机96%的指标来研制,也就是说在验证机阶段只需要达到原型机96%的性能指标就行了,因此也就是说原型机的推力一般比验证机达到的推力大5%。按照表格上130Kg/S流量的数据,WS15原型机的流量约为137Kg/S流量的级别,按照四代机单位流量推力为1.25到1.3Kgf/KgS的水平,那么推算出WS15的推力范围为17吨到18吨附近,比产品30稍大,两者的推力差别大概为1到2吨,军推推力为11吨到12吨之间。

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jobjed

Captain
This is a rather interesting post I just found, originating in 2017. The author says the the WS-15 has a thrust between 17 and 18 tons based on a flow rate (流量) of roughly 137 kg/s and an unit flow rate (单位流量) of between 1.25 to 1.3 kgf/kgs typical of 4th generation aeroengines. Apparently, he extrapolated the 137 kg/s figure from this table published by the 624th Institute back in 2011, which he believes is in reference to data collected during the WS-15 core's high altitude testing. My Chinese is not good so if I left out any of the details, please do point out. Also, does anyone know how he got to the 137 kg/s figure from the table, since his description does not specify the calculation method.


H represents altitude 0, M represents speed 0, Ga represents intake air flow, state (状态) represents 100% speed, and T1 represents afterburner temperature.

His accompanying description in Chinese for reference : 表格中只要看最下面一行就行了,H代表高度0,M代表速度0,Ga表示进气流量,状态代表100%的转速,T1代表加力温度。上面那篇论文的时间是2011年,作者是燃气涡轮院的,当时WS15正处于验证机研制的阶段,因此相应的数据也就是在处于研制阶段的WS15验证机在高空台上的试验点。验证机阶段国内是按照原型机96%的指标来研制,也就是说在验证机阶段只需要达到原型机96%的性能指标就行了,因此也就是说原型机的推力一般比验证机达到的推力大5%。按照表格上130Kg/S流量的数据,WS15原型机的流量约为137Kg/S流量的级别,按照四代机单位流量推力为1.25到1.3Kgf/KgS的水平,那么推算出WS15的推力范围为17吨到18吨附近,比产品30稍大,两者的推力差别大概为1到2吨,军推推力为11吨到12吨之间。

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He believes WS-15 specifications given in a 2011 article reflected the test state which according to standards at the time was set at 96% of final intended parameters. He then divided the 130kg/s test state mass flow rate by 0.96 to get 137kg/s for the final engine state.

1.25-1.3kgf/kgs is supposed to be the specific thrust but he got the scale wrong and is off by two magnitudes, it should actually be 125-130kgf/kgs. Net thrust can then be calculated by 137kg/s x 125kgf/kgs = ~17t force. All in all, his logic is sound and the specific thrust assumption appears reasonable considering its two biggest determinants, TIT and bypass ratio, are both parameters that AVIC was confirmed to have changed from WS-10 to WS-15 to achieve higher specific thrust. The question remains how successful AVIC was in its effort to increase TIT and whether the 137kg/s mass flow rate inferred from a 2011 article is reflective of the final WS-15.
 

free_6ix9ine

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I know we mentioned UK, US, France and Russia as having the tech for a F-119 level engine. But I would also argue Japan and Germany, also have that technology, as they have advanced gas turbine industries. Japan developed their own F-119 class engine called the XF-9 pretty quickly. This is because a lot of the same tech that goes into gas turbines can be used in airplane engines. This is why China needs to leverage its own power generation industry to get a domestic gas turbine industry off the ground. Then in the future this knowledge will transfer over to military engines. Which will shorten the development time of future engines.
 

stannislas

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I know we mentioned UK, US, France and Russia as having the tech for a F-119 level engine. But I would also argue Japan and Germany, also have that technology, as they have advanced gas turbine industries. Japan developed their own F-119 class engine called the XF-9 pretty quickly. This is because a lot of the same tech that goes into gas turbines can be used in airplane engines. This is why China needs to leverage its own power generation industry to get a domestic gas turbine industry off the ground. Then in the future this knowledge will transfer over to military engines. Which will shorten the development time of future engines.
Based on the slides we saw last year From the Japanese the xf-9 was roughly at the similar stage of ws-15 in between 2005-2010? where it’s core engine design was roughly finalized and tested. But ws-15 has major modifications over its design, so I will assume xf-9 would be slight faster, but still there is about 10 years at least to go for xf-9

and in case you may not know, the Chinese adaptive variable cycle engine project has been running smoothly for few years. So with the experience of ws-10 and ws-15 development, my guess is the next gen Chinese engine would come out much quicker than many people expected
 

Xsizor

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I know we mentioned UK, US, France and Russia as having the tech for a F-119 level engine. But I would also argue Japan and Germany, also have that technology, as they have advanced gas turbine industries. Japan developed their own F-119 class engine called the XF-9 pretty quickly. This is because a lot of the same tech that goes into gas turbines can be used in airplane engines. This is why China needs to leverage its own power generation industry to get a domestic gas turbine industry off the ground. Then in the future this knowledge will transfer over to military engines. Which will shorten the development time of future engines.
But there was a news that Japan was seeking cooperation with Rolce Royce of UK for the XF-10 engine. That would mean that a testbed XF-9 isn't a mass production engine. There were also some mentions of SiC SiC Composites to further achieve better heat tolerance and therefore efficiency and thrust rating.

IMHO, the Japanese XF-9 is a testbed to develop certain advanced technologies (high electrical power generation, composites etc) but I doubt if Japan would go solo for equipping its F-3 fighters with IHI engines. The better results XF program gives Japan, the better its position in negotiations with a foreign partner.

I'm sure Pratt and Whitney won't pick up IHI for a JV. They'd want to sell Japan an entire engine. Idk about GE, but I don't think GE is that interested.

But a Japan - UK JV is on the horizon and it does sound like it is going to materialize. Especially, as of recently UK and Japan went through the sale of ARM to Softbank.

My bet is on a IHI - Rolce Royce JV. This means that Tempest and F-3 would sport the same engines (or share a good deal of technology). Rolce Royce is also well established in mass producing and servicing engines so Japan would want such a partner rather than solely bet on IHI.
 

Orthan

Junior Member
Apparently Pupu just said that the next batch of J-20s will feature thrust enhanced Taihangs (the 14.5 tonne variant?) and that a new 16 tonne WS-10 variant was being developed. As for the designations, Pupu said the WS-10B had roughly 14 tonnes of thrust, not sure about the others.

As for the WS-15, the only news we got was that it entered flight tests on an aircraft that wasn't the J-20 (probably the J-11) back in April of last year. Haven't heard anything since ... hopefully no news means good news.

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Any news from ws-20 ?
 

free_6ix9ine

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Based on the slides we saw last year From the Japanese the xf-9 was roughly at the similar stage of ws-15 in between 2005-2010? where it’s core engine design was roughly finalized and tested. But ws-15 has major modifications over its design, so I will assume xf-9 would be slight faster, but still there is about 10 years at least to go for xf-9

and in case you may not know, the Chinese adaptive variable cycle engine project has been running smoothly for few years. So with the experience of ws-10 and ws-15 development, my guess is the next gen Chinese engine would come out much quicker than many people expected
Agreed. But regardless, I still an advanced civil gas turbine power generation industry will help China in the future, by providing access to foreign technology to shore up some of the current deficiencies such as MTBO. Power generation gas turbines and jet engines are a pretty mature industry, there is no need to start from scratch if we can leverage foreign technology.

A power generation gas turbine industry will also provide China with economy of scale for developing jet engines as well, same materials, same production processes, same talent pool, etc. There is alot of overlap in the two, so the cost of developing new engines will come down as well.

Also, we don/t know much about the WS-15 in terms of specs. But the Japanese have much more experience than China with gas turbines, so I wouldn't be surprised if the XF-9 has better performance than the WS-15 (besides max. thrust), such as MTBO, fuel efficiency, etc.
 

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