Chinese Engine Development

Blackstone said:

It's obvious some here don't want to hear anything negative or critical of China, so it's pointless to reason with those people. Agree or disagree, it's your choice.

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Honestly, the problem is not that some don't want to hear anything negative from China - and as such i agree with MiG-29 in regard to General Zhu Heping comments - but the problem is Your way of refusing to argue. Avoiding any arguments and simply - especially after quoting "strategypage" - telling the others were not able argue is not the way to discuss !

I agree with You that the WS-10 is most likely not as mature as the other contenders, that it has its problems and that it is surely operational also due to other resaons than pure performance but it is at least mature enough to choasen by the PLAAF/PLANAF for the J-11-family ... and again Your argument on international competition is simply no argument as explained.

Sorry, but that's a fact.

Deino

Blackstone said:

It's obvious some here don't want to hear anything negative or critical of China, so it's pointless to reason with those people. Agree or disagree, it's your choice.

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It is obvious some here don't want to accept the reality that China is moving forward. You can keep on repeating your fantasy, I will keep on correcting you. Your choice.

MiG-29 said:

That is very true, that is why i like General Zhu Heping comments
, he was critical in a positive way, admiting the limits, without embelishing the drawbacks, you can see how a real General of the PLAAF has the humility, here in this forum many lack.


I mean sure China is able to make engines and will for sure master the technology, that was even said by Victor Chepkin, the designer of 117 engine, but there some real limits that few are willing to acept here, but this is just a forum for people to opine.

So they have their rights

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I know you are one of those who refuse to believe WS-10A is in production despite overwhelming evidences showing contrary. Of course, people like you have the rights to fantasize. However, you also have to remember this is a reputable forum where objectivity and facts prevail. As such, groundless statements and fantasies are bounded to be challenged.

The problem here is that people including yourself view China through colored glasses. They do not come here to learn, but to preach their view of China. When these people get proven wrong, they get angry. They only have their ignorance to blame.

Blackstone said:

If there's money to be made, companies will get into it. The fact the Chinese aren't even trying to compete with even the Russians, let alone Americans and EU means WS-10A engines are still substandard and not ready for prime time.

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How do you know that the Chinese didn't try to get the engines into international market? Note this... the Chinese are not allow or would sell their J-11B (some copyright issues with the Russian, I think), so without that, no other airforce in the world had the J-11B (which had been designed with WS-10A in mind). All other aircrafts are either designed with European, Russian or US engines because it is those aircrafts that these countries operate.

I mean, lets be reasonable here. The chinese didn't sell that much aircrafts around, and those sold, either already had designed engines for it (mainly from Russia) or are not able to fit a bigger engine like the WS-10A. Therefore there is only the J-11B at the moment.

That again doesn't mean that engine are not ready... or the Chinese would not have dare to put these engines into the belly of their frontline fighters.

Also, lets take a look at the international customers... most are using US, Russian and European fighters, and these fighters already came with engines... if you are the purchaser of a fighter type whose airforce are used to (lets say) US fighter, would you get a... say... F15 and tell the US that you don't want their engine, but wanted the WS-10A which you have absolutely no technical expertise on? and had to retrain all your maintanence crews to use that engine, plus required the US company to totally re-design their F-15 to allow for the WS-10A, the same example would goes for Russian aircraft - say... the closest being the Su-27... would you abandon the engines that came with the Su-27, and opt for the Chinese WS-10A, thus wanting the Russian to redesign the Su-27 body that you want to buy and fit it with the WS-10A that you have no experience in?

Doing business and economy is not just about money (utimately, it will be money, but it is not always that apparent in the beginning) - and this include;

1) Politics,
2) Hidden cost (maintanence, operation, cost of redesigning of existing aircraft, spare parts, etc, etc)
3) Confidence in the engine (not that the engine is no good, but at present moment only J-11B had it and no one other than the Chinese had flown that aircraft, so it is not known to other operators as to how good that engine is)
4) The Chinese not selling it to the international market because it was the best engines they might have at the moment and no one would sell their best stuff to other people.

And I have mention this once... we are in a military thread, lets not talk about something that you are not familiar with and stick with something you are good with.

Typical attack on progress of china aviation engines. When WZ-10 is successfully completed and goes into mass production as proven with form of 5 regiment and still increasing. They claim the engine underpowered by comparing it to apache AH-64. Somehow Euro tiger copter is not suffer from this theory of underpowered given that tiger and WZ-10 are much lighter compare to Apache.

When evidence of WS-10A engine operating on J-11B especially the significant of being the power plant powering the prototype of J-16 and J-15S.

China military do not have the habit of talking more about engine. Most of their news are aim towards laymen to help promote CCP image. Layman most likely to take interest in the whole plane , rather than the component. They will not easily know how good is it.

Look at WZ-10, it is almost appear on CCTV military news and being heavily favour and promote ever since its mass production started and growing in numbers. But until now, there is virtually no news of talking about the power plant of WZ-10. But we can see PLA has no problem in regard to making the engine. Given the growing regiment we have witnessed.

This undated photo is not new; however, it shows a J-11B with Taihang engines.

Blackstone said:

It's obvious some here don't want to hear anything negative or critical of China, so it's pointless to reason with those people. Agree or disagree, it's your choice.

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And it's obvious the people who think others can't hear anything negative or critical of China don't accept anyone else's opinion. Or how about they also pick and choose what fits with their agenda not accepting anything that does not fit the conclusion they've already made from the beginning?

This is dumb. China has put into production military grade turbofans worthy of 4.5 generation fighters. That is fact. However, China's turbofan manufacturing isn't perfect and has a lot of room to grow and improve. That is also fact. Everything else is spin, and everyone else should just let people spin it the way they want. It doesn't matter whether Zhu Heping thinks this about China's progress in jet engines or Chen Maozhang thinks that about turbofans. What matters is what we see on the ground, and what we can objectively (to a reasonable degree) verify. If someone's being dumb, stubborn, or just plain wrong, let it be because they got their facts wrong, and not because they think China will or will not become fully independent and competitive in jet engines. Let facts speak for themselves guys!

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The production of aircraft engine turbine disks in China has been boosted by the introduction of a 36,000 metric ton (tonne) ferrous metal vertical extruder at Inner Mongolia North Heavy Industries Group. According to an article published in Avionics Intelligence, the extruder will fill the gap for large-tonnage machines in handling the extrusion of powder metallurgy (PM) alloy materials in China.

High-temperature PM alloy materials are key to producing high performance, high durability, and reliable turbine disks. The new machine will also make it possible to produce such key engine parts in vastly greater numbers.

The article also highlighted a major aircraft engine R&D project currently under review by the State Council in China, worth an estimated ¥100 billion yuan (approx. $16 billion US dollars).
enews257

“At present, aircraft engine design and manufacturing still has weak links in terms of materials, key parts, manufacturing equipment, processing precision, and measurement,” stated a professor at the Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (BUAA).

“Although the country is capable of producing aircraft engines, product performance is inadequate and mass production is yet to be realised,” he added.

It is estimated that China will need around 3,000 aircraft between now and 2026. This will create demand for some 6,500 aircraft engines worth approximately $65 billion US dollars.

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a couple of things.

strategypage should never be used for Chinese sourcing
just because J-11B is use WS-10A, that does not mean WS-10A does not still have a lot of problems.
there is nothing wrong with having problems, because every new engine goes through this stage before it's mature