Chinese Engine Development

Blackstone

Brigadier
That is unreasonable... you would need to ask yourself this common sense question, why in the world would the Chinese produce more engines that they needed? So that they can keep these engines in the store?

They only have so many J-11B that needed the engines, anything more is a waste of precious capacity and money. And as pointed out, other fighters that are using Russian engines might not be because the WS-10A is not ready, but might be because, the fighter was designed to use Russian engines and to change to WS-10A, it will be very expensive and seriously not needed.

For the US and Russian engines... yes they are being produce in large number, mainly because there is a need and a demand for those engines... worldwide.

If there's money to be made, companies will get into it. The fact the Chinese aren't even trying to compete with even the Russians, let alone Americans and EU means WS-10A engines are still substandard and not ready for prime time.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
If there's money to be made, companies will get into it. The fact the Chinese aren't even trying to compete with even the Russians, let alone Americans and EU means WS-10A engines are still substandard and not ready for prime time.

WS10 has already competed with & beaten Russian engines to equip new PLAAF jets.
What you say about competition being about companies making money is very ignorant. It has much more to do with politics in the arms market. Many big buyers are only allowed to buy from the west due to politics for example.
Even among western firms, politics plays a big role like being only able to buy US etc.
 

Engineer

Major
If there's money to be made, companies will get into it. The fact the Chinese aren't even trying to compete with even the Russians, let alone Americans and EU means WS-10A engines are still substandard and not ready for prime time.

Wrong. The
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engine does not compete with anyone on the international market either. Yet, that engine is superb and went through mass production. So, whether an engine competes with others globally has no relevance to the engine's quality.

Like I have said earlier, if you have actual proofs that WS-10A is not in production, then let us see them.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
If there's money to be made, companies will get into it. The fact the Chinese aren't even trying to compete with even the Russians, let alone Americans and EU means WS-10A engines are still substandard and not ready for prime time.

What a - sorry to say - stupid argument !

Was the US GE F110 or PW F100 ever offered or proposed on the international market to compete with a Russian AL-31 ??? ... and since that was not the case is that proof for being a substandard powerplant ??

Both engines were simply tailor-made for the F-15/16 and as such were only sold in combination with these fighters the same way like the AL-31 was developed for the Flanker version. The fact that the WS-10 equips so far no export-Flanker is simply due to the fact that so far (and most likely never will do so) a Chinese J-11 competed with a Russian Su-27 on the international market. Otherwise the fact that since a few yeras only TH-powered J-11 were rolling off the production line at SAC should tell You all You need ...

Deino
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Wrong. The
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engine does not compete with anyone on the international market either. Yet, that engine is superb and went through mass production. So, whether an engine competes with others globally has no relevance to the engine's quality.

Like I have said earlier, if you have actual proofs that WS-10A is not in production, then let us see them.

It's one thing to "produce" WS-10x engines and quite another to do it well. A June, 2012 article from the Strategy Page describes many engine production and quality issues.

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Why Russia Has China By The Engines
by James Dunnigan
June 2, 2012
China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. One of these unsuccessful efforts is becoming a major embarrassment, to the point where government officials are complaining about it openly. While the Chinese government tries to control news of leadership conflicts, they often allow arguments to go public when it is believed some public debate might do some good. Such is the case with the uneven effort to manufacture military jet engines in China. The basic problem is the inability of the state controlled aviation company (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) to master the most advanced manufacturing and quality control techniques. The problem is the inability of state-run firms to operate as efficiently as their privately owned counterparts in the West. The public debate points to the continued inability to even achieve the lower (than in the West) manufacturing standards of Russia, whose state-run firms (during the Soviet period) were also never able to match Western standards. Some Chinese officials urge privatizing the engine manufacturers, but many others oppose that on political (not wanting to admit defeat) or practical (losing direct control of a key military industry) grounds. Meanwhile, the manufacturing bureaucrats cannot cope, even after many years of effort and much money spent. While some 20 percent of Chinese warplanes now use Chinese made engines, 80 percent do not and that is something the government has not been able to keep secret.

In the last decade China has poured much money and leadership effort into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did in the beginning. Developing the necessary engine design and construction skills is difficult. But China has several advantages. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades. But the state owned engine manufacturers have been unable to develop the entrepreneurial spirit that works so well in the West (and other, privately owned, segments of the Chinese economy).

The Chinese consider the locally designed and built J-10 aircraft and WS-10A engine part of the learning process and they do learn from their mistakes. But jet engines for combat aircraft are very complex, and China is encountering more problems than they expected. Solutions have not kept up with new problems.

And then there's China not wanting, for a long time, to admit that its own engine development efforts have consistently come up short. For example, two years ago China announced that it was replacing the engines in its J-10 fighter, installing Chinese made WS-10A in place of the Russian made AL-31FN. But last year China quietly ordered several hundred more Russian AL-31FNs. No more talk of using the WS-10A on a large scale.

The Chinese claim the WS-10A is superior to the AL-31F, even though the WS-10A copied a lot of the Russian technology. The Chinese say they have improved on that. But those improvements were often things the Russians already had in the works, like increasing the basic AL-31 lifetime from 900 to 1,500 hours and, most recently, 2,000 hours. Meanwhile the Chinese have failed to master some of the basic manufacturing techniques for high-performance jet engines. Recently Chinese officials publicly made an issue of the Chinese company's inability to master the skills needed to manufacture turbine blades for high-performance jet engines. The reality is that the WS-10A has some serious, and unpredictable, reliability problems, which are becoming obvious. China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five years, which implies that Chinese engine manufacturers still have a way to go. It may take longer.

For years China has imported two Russian engines, the $3.5 million AL-31 (for the Su-30, and the local clone, the J11 and Chinese designed J-10) and the $2.5 million RD-93 (a version of the MiG-29's RD-33) for the JF-17 (an F-16 type aircraft developed in cooperation with Pakistan). But in the meantime Chinese engineers thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL-31 engine. This Chinese copy, the WS-10A, is part of a program that has also developed the WS-13, to replace the RD-93 as well. While the Chinese have been able to build engines that are durable, they are still having problems with reliability and that's a killer with fighter jet engines, where failure in combat can be fatal.

Russian sales of AL-31 jet engines to China have surpassed a thousand, with the addition of several new orders in the past year. This is because China wants to expand its fleet of modern jet fighters (J-10 and J-11) and keep pilots in the air often enough to develop and maintain combat skills. That wears out engines faster. Another reason for the continued orders is persistent Chinese difficulties in developing jet engine manufacturing capabilities. China has been especially keen on freeing itself from dependence on Russian high-performance jet engines for its top-line jet fighters. That has not been happening.

With an increase in orders from the Russian Air Force, the Russian manufacturer of the AL-31 has had to boost production this year by over a third. The Russians also appear confident that the Chinese are not going to solve their engine manufacturing problems any time soon. This can be seen in how China openly (and unsuccessfully) protested restrictions Russia wants on the use of AL-31FN engines. Russia wants guarantees that the AL-31FNs will only be used to power Chinese warplanes and that none of them will be disassembled to assist Chinese engineers in perfecting the illegal Chinese clone of the AL-31FN, the WS-10A. China has been stealing Russian military tech for years, especially since the end of the Cold War. Back then Russia could no longer afford to buy new military gear, and it was only orders from China and India that kept many Russian defense firms in business. With many more orders from the Russian military, the Russian manufacturers feel able to play hardball with China. Russia has China by the engines and is squeezing.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Sorry, but "strategypage" is surely THE source to tell reliable about CHinese engines ! ;)

Deino
 

Engineer

Major
It's one thing to "produce" WS-10x engines and quite another to do it well. A June, 2012 article from the Strategy Page describes many engine production and quality issues.

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Production is production. Attaching a condition of "do it it well" is an attempt to redefine the meaning of the word with something that doesn't convey any actual meaning. To put it another way, you don't have a qualitative definition of "well", which makes it a
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. It only highlights how you do not have facts to support your opinion that WS-10 is not under production.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
It's obvious some here don't want to hear anything negative or critical of China, so it's pointless to reason with those people. Agree or disagree, it's your choice.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
It's obvious some here don't want to hear anything negative or critical of China, so it's pointless to reason with those people. Agree or disagree, it's your choice.

That is very true, that is why i like General Zhu Heping comments
, he was critical in a positive way, admiting the limits, without embelishing the drawbacks, you can see how a real General of the PLAAF has the humility, here in this forum many lack.


I mean sure China is able to make engines and will for sure master the technology, that was even said by Victor Chepkin, the designer of 117 engine, but there some real limits that few are willing to acept here, but this is just a forum for people to opine.

So they have their rights
 
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