Chinese Aviation Industry

sndef888

Senior Member
Registered Member
Indegenization takes 20 years?!

No. China can create a military version of C919 in short notice. But such an aircraft won't be competitive if adopted for civilian aviation purposes. At the Zhuhai Airshow, we saw civil aviation focused radars and electronics. China has the technologies but they aren't likely mature or have the flight hours.

Right now, Y-8/Y-9 along with the Y-20 seems to be enough for PLAAF. Do remember that US and EU requirements for a civilian turned military solution is due to their force structure being expeditionary ( France has the A330 refueler because it has departments and territories in Pacific, Latin America, Africa and Carribeans).

China needs civilian turned military aircrafts but it seems to be not a pressing need. If the Civil aviation industry takes off, China will procure them. It'll add more flexibility and range for operations in South and South East Asia.
No I mean it takes that long for China's commercial aviation companies to catch up and create a sanction proof supply chain

Even if China makes a purely military one it still gives the US ammo to sanction it as long as Comac is involved in any way


I agree, Y9 and Y20 is completely sufficient for China
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China completed the New wind tunnel. It will improve future Chinese fighter and commercial airline design

China's newest continuous transonic wind tunnel FL-62 in 60 seconds​

China has completed the construction of its FL-62 continuous transonic wind tunnel. With a volume of 17,000 cubic meters and a weight of more than 6,600 tonnes, the FL-62 is one of the most advanced continuous transonic wind tunnels in the world. A wind tunnel is a large piece of equipment that creates a simulated air environment in a cave-like facility to test the aerodynamics of aircraft.

Most of China's active-duty fighter jets have been tested in a wind tunnel. The difficulty of building an FL-62 is no less than developing a stealth fighter jet. It took hundreds of Chinese researchers years to develop an 80,000-kilowatt compressor, the main power source of the FL-62 wind tunnel. The FL-62 will be used in the testing and design of China's next-generation fighter jets, and is a strategic component of China's aviation industry.

 

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
A good AWAC plane needs to be able to loft a heavy radar and also have sufficient internal volume for enough crew to analyze data, give commands, etc.

The Y-9 platform has 25k kg lift capacity and 23k kg fuel capacity with 65k kg maximum takeoff weight.

A typical business jet like Gulfstream G550 has 21k kg empty weight, 19k kg fuel weight, 41k kg max takeoff weight, making it's effective lift weight 1000 kg which is barely enough for a 10 person crew each weighing 70 kg, never mind a very large radar array that also adds drag, or the electronic equipment requires for processing, or cooling systems for the radar, or hydraulic actuators for tilting the radar, or any emergency countermeasures...

They claim a 2.8k kg payload, I'm not sure about that, but even that is just tiny.

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You are aware that the wiki link you provided for the G550 states that a G550 CAEW is in service with Israel and Singapore airforce?

Here's a link describing the changes made to the base G550 jet to make it fit for purpose.
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
You are aware that the wiki link you provided for the G550 states that a G550 CAEW is in service with Israel and Singapore airforce?

Here's a link describing the changes made to the base G550 jet to make it fit for purpose.
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yes but however you spin it, there's a huge difference between a 2800 kg lift capability (G550) and a 25000 kg lift capability (Y-9). Anything you can do with 2800 kg lift, you can do better with 25000 kg lift. If nothing else, you can just use that extra lift capability to store tanks of fuel. like why is this even a point to argue.
 

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
yes but however you spin it, there's a huge difference between a 2800 kg lift capability (G550) and a 25000 kg lift capability (Y-9). Anything you can do with 2800 kg lift, you can do better with 25000 kg lift. If nothing else, you can just use that extra lift capability to store tanks of fuel. like why is this even a point to argue.

Your original claim is that the G550 does not have the chops to make an effective AEW platform. It does.

Now your assertion is "more is better". Well fair enough, more is better - up to the point where it provides capabilities that are not required. Then it's just additional cost for gold plating.

Might as well go for gold and use the largest possible plane ... An225?

There are pro-cons for operating a commercial/business jet as an AEW platform vs a mil transport. There are also pro-cons for jet based vs prop based. Consider those before you starting pushing hard for the Y9 and/or dismissing other solutions.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Your original claim is that the G550 does not have the chops to make an effective AEW platform. It does.

Now your assertion is "more is better". Well fair enough, more is better - up to the point where it provides capabilities that are not required. Then it's just additional cost for gold plating.

Might as well go for gold and use the largest possible plane ... An225?

There are pro-cons for operating a commercial/business jet as an AEW platform vs a mil transport. There are also pro-cons for jet based vs prop based. Consider those before you starting pushing hard for the Y9 and/or dismissing other solutions.

What are the limitations? They needed a smaller array and went with 2 side conformal array + nose/tail array in different bands.

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One limitation is that their line of sight is limited to a 120 degree cone in each band. With 4 radars it gives them 360 degree coverage - but not in each band. It also limits the azimuthal angles of view - for example, an aircraft flying right above or below it. Seems like a narrow use case - but what about missile defense i.e. look down for cruise missiles, look up for ballistic missiles?

Meanwhile a 6 antenna AESA radar in an enclosed, top mounted radome can provide 360 degree coverage at all azimuthal angles.

How many crew can it handle while also lifting all the electronics? Clearly their range and time on station must be diminished due to the increased weight, is that change published? Does it have command facilities?

Finally, China doesn't build business jets. China does build both turboprop transports and jet transports. Is there a reason to wait until a business jet is here to build a smaller AWAC?
 

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
What are the limitations? They needed a smaller array and went with 2 side conformal array + nose/tail array in different bands.

proxy-image


One limitation is that their line of sight is limited to a 120 degree cone in each band. With 4 radars it gives them 360 degree coverage - but not in each band. It also limits the azimuthal angles of view - for example, an aircraft flying right above or below it. Seems like a narrow use case - but what about missile defense i.e. look down for cruise missiles, look up for ballistic missiles?

Meanwhile a 6 antenna AESA radar in an enclosed, top mounted radome can provide 360 degree coverage at all azimuthal angles.

How many crew can it handle while also lifting all the electronics? Clearly their range and time on station must be diminished due to the increased weight, is that change published? Does it have command facilities?

Finally, China doesn't build business jets. China does build both turboprop transports and jet transports. Is there a reason to wait until a business jet is here to build a smaller AWAC?

Comac?

I wonder how those bar AESA arrayed AEWs work. Hmmmmmm ....
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Comac?

I wonder how those bar AESA arrayed AEWs work. Hmmmmmm ....
uh, it is well known and documented that bar AESA AEW has severe limitations at high offbore angles.

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Typical detection range against fighter-sized targets is approximately 425 kilometres (264 mi), in a 150° broadside sector, both sides of the aircraft. Outside these sectors, performance is reduced in forward and aft directions.
This is why KJ-200 was dropped and ended production once the superior Y-9 platform was adapted for the KJ-500.
 

Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
uh, it is well known and documented that bar AESA AEW has severe limitations at high offbore angles.

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This is why KJ-200 was dropped and ended production once the superior Y-9 platform was adapted for the KJ-500.

Fair enough, so they fly a different pattern to compensate. No biggie?
But didn't CETC mention that future AEW will likely be conformal?

Point is, it's pointless to get hung up on "it must be this solution and no other" when the requirements hasn't even been defined, which is where the discussion was headed. It's like saying build a SSN or don't build a sub at all.

All the mentioned AEW platforms work - I can tell you that word of mouth is that the RSAF is very happy with the CAEW (and they are considered a bellweather evaluator of platforms) Just because you/we/I can't comprehend how they are employed doesn't mean they don't.

OT enough so last comment on this for me.
 
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pmc

Major
Registered Member
This small AWACS is 1960s idea against primitive fighter and naval radar systems at the time. now even helicopter has AESA and sufficient power full engines.
Y-20 is robust platform with 4 engine power that can install several ton AESA radar and pods.
many more people for effective management of onboard systems with rest areas for long range missions with extended fuel tanks built into platform. new engines are now reliable enough to stay in air 24 hours.
I will even predict the outcome of Air-Sea battle will be decided by effective use of awacs. A corvette supported by more powerfull awacs will strike at longer range than destroyer supported by smaller carrier awacs.


B-52 shall have Martime strike component. cannot rely on small AEWs or fighter radars escorting it.

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There is 20 tones of equipment inside latest IL-476 based awacs.
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