Chinese Aviation Industry

FairAndUnbiased said:

A good AWAC plane needs to be able to loft a heavy radar and also have sufficient internal volume for enough crew to analyze data, give commands, etc.

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A good AWACS platform needs to cruise efficiently, providing the best possible conditions for both the crew(operators) and equipment. Transport planes are not very good at it, as significant parts of their optimization are different (cargo hold volume, STOL&austere field performance).
This is why commercial airliners are so popular in this role - they are a match made in heaven, optimized by the forces of the market.

FairAndUnbiased said:

A typical business jet like Gulfstream G550 has 21k kg empty weight, 19k kg fuel weight, 41k kg max takeoff weight, making it's effective lift weight 1000 kg which is barely enough for a 10 person crew each weighing 70 kg, never mind a very large radar array that also adds drag, or the electronic equipment requires for processing, or cooling systems for the radar, or hydraulic actuators for tilting the radar, or any emergency countermeasures...

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China will have a perfectly viable and fresh KJ-600 AEW complex in a few years. It is quite moderate in its size and is certainly powerful enough for a smaller AEW.

Furthermore, smaller AEW planes can be cheaper, more numerous, and more attritable.
I believe it's a good choice to have both in your force structure.

What is the point of this conversation, China is still far from having a viable commercial platform for smaller/civilian airplanes based AWACS/AEWs... Next big step will be Y-20B based very powerful AWACS. Any other platform is at least a decade or more away...

manqiangrexue said:

You've learned nothing from the semiconductor/lithpgraphy bans?

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I have already posted about that.

Xsizor said:

I think you missed my point.

I don't think China would say no to aerial refueling and strategic transport solutions based on a C929 /C919.

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No, i didnt miss. If china wants to develop better military aircraft engines, they dont need an airline industry to do that. Also, IMO a stretched Y-20 could do the trick, regarding military planes with aditional refuelling/transport capability. We have already seen such model.

weig2000 said:

In the early '00's, China purchased a B767 to be used as presidential aircraft. It was sent to a company in San Antonio for interior furnishing, but it was found later that the aircraft was fully bugged. In the end, the idea to use it as presidential aircraft was scrapped.

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I remember this incident. And how did the chinese government solved this problem? they just use comercial Air China planes. Its not that they need many for that, only 2.

Orthan said:

If china wants to develop better military aircraft engines, they dont need an airline industry to do that

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It would generate commercial demand for engine development companies which would build more infrastructure, train more talents for engine development, and ultimately have these companies enter the military engine development.

Civilian aviation is a industry which is a perfect fit for the military-civil fusion program

Orthan said:

I have already posted about that.


No, i didnt miss. If china wants to develop better military aircraft engines, they dont need an airline industry to do that. Also, IMO a stretched Y-20 could do the trick, regarding military planes with aditional refuelling/transport capability. We have already seen such model.


I remember this incident. And how did the chinese government solved this problem? they just use comercial Air China planes. Its not that they need many for that, only 2.

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China need a company specializing in design and manufacturing or various kind of Jet engine. China jet engine progress was slow in the past due to fragmentation of the designer. Following Soviet model each of design office design their own engine and then give the design to manufacturing company. Typically the design of the engine started with the fighter project What it end up is that the engine is way late! While in the west normally it start with engine independent of the fighter project. Having fragmented company mean less efficient, wasteful use of talent, resources, capital and management. That is why China create AECC and since then then progress has been remarkable as we see in this forum.

In the west the engine and the fighter jet company are separated allowing each to hone their skill on just 1 particular aspect of the fighter program. It bring efficiency, size and capital to pursue long lead engine project irrespective of fighter program. Preservation and cultivation of talent in engine design, manufacturing , assembly and QA. etc Yes China need civil aero engine to design better military engine! It bring size and aggregate experience over the year. Plus it enlarge the talent pool.

Orthan said:

I have already posted about that.

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What did you post? That this is different? LOL "He hit me on the head with the branch... but this is different because he won't do the same with the 2x4. He hit me on the head with the 2x4... but now it's really different because he don't do it with the bat. He hit me on the head with the bat... but this time it's totally really different because he won't hit me on the head with the crowbar. He hit...." Thinking/wishing it will be different every time is how the US reacts to China breaching technological barriers spurred by every ban, and every time, it is the same. This is the stupidest action that I see the US continue to repeat, always failing to apply what you learned to a highly similar but slightly different situation moving forward. A smart person gets hit with one thing, and will immediately defend himself from all future attacks by every available avenue that the enemy has. China must become self-sufficient in every technology and need.

Xsizor said:

Wait.

No one stopped China from researching and innovating and thereby leapfrogging Western companies. Ofcourse, one can indeed point at the suspicious business practises that goes against "free market ethics" in Civil aviation that both EU and US employs.

But China cares not much for "free market ethics" and therefore is one of the few countries which can meet the oligopoly champs halfway.

I mentioned a Chinese company Wuxi Hyatech which manufacturers compressor blades for major aviation Turbofans. That company wouldn't exist if not for the western companies you insisted should be banned. Ban never works - atleast towards the intended effect. Compete and innovate.

Like some, China has unique strengths that many countries wish ( and even pray before going to bed everyday) to have. Leverage them.

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Western companies shouldn't be banned, but China should start building its own versions of Chinese commercial jets rather than relying solely on the ARJ21/C919 and other planes which are mostly Western planes but China only built the trunk and wings for it. It's not just engines. It needs practice with all the parts and putting them together.

gadgetcool5 said:

Western companies shouldn't be banned, but China should start building its own versions of Chinese commercial jets rather than relying solely on the ARJ21/C919 and other planes which are mostly Western planes but China only built the trunk and wings for it. It's not just engines. It needs practice with all the parts and putting them together.

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Yes, but fully developing that capacity in pieces like the ARJ21 and C919 is the easiest and least risky way.

You gain systems integration, manufacturing ability, testing and verification ability, plus the systems that were developed independently. The first piece/step.

Then you can add on a new indigenous system as an option throughout the service life of the aircraft, especially WRT the engines. The second... steps.

Don't think China will use commercial aircraft for awacs until it has been fully indigenised, which will take 20-30 years at the very least

Doing it now is too risky, the US can sanction it anytime

sndef888 said:

Don't think China will use commercial aircraft for awacs until it has been fully indigenised, which will take 20-30 years at the very least

Doing it now is too risky, the US can sanction it anytime

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Indegenization takes 20 years?!

No. China can create a military version of C919 in short notice. But such an aircraft won't be competitive if adopted for civilian aviation purposes. At the Zhuhai Airshow, we saw civil aviation focused radars and electronics. China has the technologies but they aren't likely mature or have the flight hours.

Right now, Y-8/Y-9 along with the Y-20 seem to be enough for PLAAF. Do remember that US and EU requirements for a civilian turned military solution is due to their force structure being expeditionary ( France has the A330 refueler because it has departments and territories in Pacific, Latin America, Africa and Carribeans).

China needs civilian turned military aircrafts but it seems to be not a pressing need. If the Civil aviation industry takes off, China will procure them. It'll add more flexibility and range for operations in South and South East Asia.