China - Pakistan Economic Corridor - CPEC


Dizasta1

Senior Member
Are there still chronic power shortages across cities in Pakistan?

Chronic still, to an extent, yes. However, the major industrial base, emergency centers and other critical infrastructure has now been fully restored and given a solid back up system.

The critical issue is no longer the production of energy, rather it is the maintenance and supply of electricity. There needs to be a revamp or restructuring if key Power Supply employees of the State. Educated, reasonably paid and who don't swindle money selling the "original parts" and replacing them with cheap ones to make a "quick buck." Until this is also dealt with by Pakistan's Government, then I'm sorry to say that we can be producing 50000 Mega Watts of electricity, but will still have power outages.
 

Franklin

Captain
I think some of the Chinese investments in infrastructure in Pakistan don't make financial or political sense to me. But to a large degree I would say most of the investments do make sense. I only fear that some of the projects may be too large in scope though. It is fine to grow the transport and energy infrastructure, but without the industrial zones and fabric to produce products and employ people to pay these investments how can they be maintained in the long run? I know that Chinese economic investment zones are also planned but we see little news of those compared to the mega construction projects and that does worry me. To a degree I think China has been a responsible partner in that they either take up the financial burden for the project they sponsored or alleviate the payback reducing rates or increasing the length of time to pay back the loans. For example the Sri Lankan port case is often bandied to say China is an economic predator. However if you examine it more closely, the project was done under the initiative of the then Sri Lankan ruler who wanted a major harbor in his region of origin. This was a vanity project. It was done on the other side of the island, far away from the major population centers, like in the middle of nowhere. The port was both too large for the country solely and the infrastructure to connect the port to the rest of the country was not developed in time. So it is little surprise it was a failure. What people do not mention is that at the same time China upgraded their existing main port and that operation has been financially successful. The failure vanity project was taken over by China with a 99 year lease. Which I do consider excessive, but between that and having no second port in Sri Lanka, which is better really? It ended up costing

I think the Ethiopian railway system project was much more of a failure because there was poor planning with regards to the infrastructure surrounding the line which were required to make it profitable and viable in the first place. Then the northern rail extension was more of a political nature and had limited financial prospects. This lead to its economic failure. But you can attribute that to lack of economic planning by the Ethiopian state itself. I think China needs to better support these countries with top level economic advisors and consider the local conditions better in projects going further to ensure increased profitability and success. A lot of these countries lack the expertise to make informed decisions in such matters. In China, for example, it is likely the local governments would have taken the initiative to build the surrounding infrastructure but in places like those, they simply either do not have the budget or lack the know-how in how to do that properly.

To also tackle these issues I think the Chinese should enact similar programs to what the Soviets used to do back then i.e. finance scholarships to train technical personnel born in African countries at Chinese technical and economic schools in order to improve contact between Chinese engineers and economic planners and those countries.

The IMF is a tool of the US government to promote globalization to a degree even the USA does not allow inside its own borders. They basically force countries to dismantle their social industries and increase the social costs of base products in exchange for money. This pushes down those countries into a consistent position of economic vassalage to them. No industry is allowed to fully develop.
Its the question of the chicken and the egg. Infrastructure investments can create a lot of debt and poses a serious risk. But how can Pakistan build up a industrial base without adequate energy and transport infrastructure. The problem with Pakistan is that the education level of the general population is very low. So Pakistan cannot compete on the mid level of industrial production and has to rely on the lower end. But the competition is stiff in that area both from ASEAN and automation. Companies prefer the ASEAN region over South Asia because of its geographic and cultural closeness with countries like China, Japan and South Korea. Also the education level and infrastructure there are better. And then there are the robots that are proliferating at a breakneck speed especially in China. Its almost impossible for workers to compete with those machines. India is facing the same problem.

One possible area that I think Pakistan can grow in is recycling. Since China says that they would no longer import trash from other countries there has been a waste disposal crisis in the world. Trash is piling up all over the (developed) world. Pakistan with the help from China can potentially jump into this market.
 

AndrewS

Major
Registered Member
Its the question of the chicken and the egg. Infrastructure investments can create a lot of debt and poses a serious risk. But how can Pakistan build up a industrial base without adequate energy and transport infrastructure. The problem with Pakistan is that the education level of the general population is very low. So Pakistan cannot compete on the mid level of industrial production and has to rely on the lower end. But the competition is stiff in that area both from ASEAN and automation. Companies prefer the ASEAN region over South Asia because of its geographic and cultural closeness with countries like China, Japan and South Korea. Also the education level and infrastructure there are better. And then there are the robots that are proliferating at a breakneck speed especially in China. Its almost impossible for workers to compete with those machines. India is facing the same problem.

One possible area that I think Pakistan can grow in is recycling. Since China says that they would no longer import trash from other countries there has been a waste disposal crisis in the world. Trash is piling up all over the (developed) world. Pakistan with the help from China can potentially jump into this market.

What you're describing are longer term development challenges.

In the short term, just solving the electricity shortages should spur an economic boom. There shouldn't be any risk because there is already a shortage.

And think of all the businesses that would like to expand if they had reliable electricity.

Note the majority of CPEC investment is in the electricity sector.
 
Chronic still, to an extent, yes. However, the major industrial base, emergency centers and other critical infrastructure has now been fully restored and given a solid back up system.

The critical issue is no longer the production of energy, rather it is the maintenance and supply of electricity. There needs to be a revamp or restructuring if key Power Supply employees of the State. Educated, reasonably paid and who don't swindle money selling the "original parts" and replacing them with cheap ones to make a "quick buck." Until this is also dealt with by Pakistan's Government, then I'm sorry to say that we can be producing 50000 Mega Watts of electricity, but will still have power outages.

I have a few colleagues which originally from Pakistan, in general, they are highly motivated and very competent engineers (I myself an engineer) .. I have no doubt of the quality of Pakistani engineers in general. Might be a problem of brain drain there .. I meant the best people there choose to immigrate to other countries (UK, USA, Australia, NZ, etc), the same case may be for India
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
I have a few colleagues which originally from Pakistan, in general, they are highly motivated and very competent engineers (I myself an engineer) .. I have no doubt of the quality of Pakistani engineers in general. Might be a problem of brain drain there .. I meant the best people there choose to immigrate to other countries (UK, USA, Australia, NZ, etc), the same case may be for India

There is no "brain drain" in Pakistan, at least not as they way a brain drain is described to be. The problem faced in Pakistan is complexed, yet not uncommon like around the world. For starters, there is an acute shortage of maintenance technicians, I mean actual, trained, qualified and TRUSTWORTHY ones. The problem does not end there either. Because you cannot resolve the problem of having qualified, trained maintenance technicians, without dealing with feudalism, it's wretched offspring, nepotism. In particular, the shamelessly ignorant and illiterate feudal system of Sindh. Where jobs are given to unqualified individuals, who are in favor with the Sindhi feudal lords, or are some how their relatives. They don't even show up to work, and just go to the payroll dept at the end of the month, to pick up their paycheck. The ones who actually are somewhat competent, steal original parts from stock, sell them in the black market for money and replace them with knock-off parts that malfunction or burn out within a short period of time.

Even before CPEC, if there were qualified maintenance technicians, proper logistics support depts and management who weren't sitting on their lard asses, freeloading off the government jobs. Then surprisingly enough, Pakistan would be experiencing 45% less power outages, than it had been when the situation was declared critical.

And when you've solved the problems of nepotism, secured logistics, competent maintenance technicians and management. There is the problem of the infamous "Kundaa" culture. Where undocumented residence (slums) steal electricity by latching cables on to the power lines in order to route electricity into their homes. And this problem is rampant every where in Pakistan. There is also the issue of illegally sanctioned subsidized electricity tariffs to favored businesses that are in the good books of the powerful, corrupt and disgraceful politicians every where in Pakistan.

So you can have all the brand new, shiny highways, power plants, dams, deep water ports. What will remain constant are the "jackasses" (pardon my french) that are the corrupt politicians, feudal lords, shady businesses with deep connection to power brokers to take favors from. And I wouldn't blame Pakistani engineers from leaving the country for a better paid jobs. The good Lord knows all jobs in Pakistan are given to entitled, feudal retards. They act as though, it's their birth right to have those jobs, regardless if they are qualified for them or not.

You can't put a band aid over a deep and old wound by throwing money at it or building new things. Pakistan Steel Mills was destroyed from the core by the same incompetent, JAHIL individuals who destroyed Pakistan International Airlines, are also the same individuals who have mismanaged WAPDA, KESC and other state institutions. Problems won't go away until they're rooted out at their core.
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
Come on, how on Earth someone can give such sweeping statements when they never ever visited the country & basing their senseless statements purely on biased media reporting & CIA/RAW reports.....

I don't have to say anything further....

Human tendency to succumb to hubris, which stems from vanity, gives way to ignorance and the cycle perpetuates.

My advice, focus on what's important, rather than on what's irrelevant, insignificant and unworthy of engagement.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
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There has certainly been a lot of noise, with even the Financial Times of London lending its good name to propaganda:

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"Pakistan plans to review or renegotiate agreements reached under China’s Belt and Road Initiative, joining a growing list of countries questioning the terms of their involvement in Beijing’s showpiece infrastructure investment plan."

This article was immediately debunked by Dawn:

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"The governments of both Pakistan and China on Monday refuted an article published in the Financial Times (FT) which had alleged that Pakistan is looking to renegotiate its position in Beijing's Belt-Road Initiative (BRI)."

Incidentally, Dawn is Pakistan's largest newspaper (English language), created by Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan. Jinnah also has the titles "Quaid-i-Azam" and "Baba-i-Qaum" but I don't know what these mean. Does anyone?

The anti-CPEC noise is getting loud indeed. Is London so desperate at losing influence in Pakistan that even the Financial Times would be willing to destroy its good name to save some of that influence?
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
There has certainly been a lot of noise, with even the Financial Times of London lending its good name to propaganda:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


"Pakistan plans to review or renegotiate agreements reached under China’s Belt and Road Initiative, joining a growing list of countries questioning the terms of their involvement in Beijing’s showpiece infrastructure investment plan."


The anti-CPEC noise is getting loud indeed. Is London so desperate at losing influence in Pakistan that even the Financial Times would be willing to destroy its good name to save some of that influence?

Since the time China's efforts in South China Sea began to bare fruit in the shape of actual islands developed from shoals and archipelagos. With infrastructure built on them to support not just tourism, but also military operations. The americans and british have been uncomfortable with it. China and Russia's gains and their level of independence from Western monopoly, has led to active propaganda campaign by american, british and french to undermine the progress of both countries. Of course, that means that allies of these two countries would also be targeted. We are all witnessing unprecedented duplicity and sheer wickedness by the americans, british and french governments with what they're doing to Venezuela. So it shouldn't come as a surprise if such efforts aren't also directed at Pakistan.

Make no mistake, the west will use all the tools it has available, to implement its strategy against China and Russia. That means, Financial Times, Rueters, World Bank, International Monetary Fund, SWIFT international payment system and etc would all be used to target allies of both countries. In the efforts to isolate both China and Russia. The more isolated and ally-less both countries are, the better the chances for the american-british-french in a war against both countries. There would be less spill over to deal with. Venezuela, Iran, Algeria and Pakistan are the next targets on their hit-list.

Remember their tactics, because it is a familiar pattern starting with western media running a malicious campaign against the targeted country. This western media campaign runs alongside clandestine operations with interfering in the internal affairs and politics of the targeted country. Using whatever opposition there is, which can be bought with promises, money and other tools. Followed by mass riots, protests and militant uprising. After which come statements by western governments, condemning the targeted country's govt. If the riots and militant uprising are successful in overthrowing the targeted country's government. Then the bought off new government serves the interests of the western powers and opens up the country's resources to western corporations. If however the militant uprising is quashed by the targeted country's government. Then sanctions follow, to weaken the targeted country's government and more pressure is applied by arming and funding opposition rioters and militants. The tactics aren't always implement in any particular sequence, conforming only to what the situation is, in the targeted country. This pretty much summarizes the western "regime change" playbook tactics.

Incidentally, Dawn is Pakistan's largest newspaper (English language), created by Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan. Jinnah also has the titles "Quaid-i-Azam" and "Baba-i-Qaum" but I don't know what these mean. Does anyone?

The title, "Quaid-e-Azam" means the leader of the country (Pakistan), whereas "Baba-e-Qaum" means father of the nation.
 
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Dizasta1

Senior Member
Here we have a very good example of how the zionist-american apparatus targets the Sino-Russian ties around the world. In this news report, it clearly shows how both China and Russia have invested billions in Venezuela, to bring the country's economic standings into the top tier of global economies.

Both China and Russia know the importance of allies, and the need to invest in their allies. Strong and stable allies with China and Russia, are crucial to a balanced mutli-polar world. Both countries value the need for strong allies, and their economic strength lends volumes to establishing a counter-weight to the west. The west however doesn't want a multi-polar world where it can be bypassed, ignored or boycotted when it tries to impose it's hegemony on the rest of the world.

Chinese investments most at risk from US sanctions against Venezuela

While crisis-torn Venezuela braces for the impact from the latest US economic sanctions, Venezuela’s trading partners are also at great risk.

On Monday, the Trump administration announced sanctions against Venezuela’s state-owned energy company Petroleos de Venezuela, better known as PDVSA. The fresh restrictions will freeze $7 billion in assets and cause more than $11 billion in lost export revenues throughout the next year.

One of the country’s biggest trade partners and creditors, China, has already opposed foreign interference in Venezuela’s affairs, saying the US will bear responsibility for sweeping sanctions it imposed.

China has provided $50 billion in loans to the Latin American country over the past decade. Through loans and outbound direct investments, Beijing has poured funding into Venezuela while many other countries backed off from doing business with the cash-strapped nation.

Caracas has been gradually paying off that debt with oil shipments, but has struggled to fulfill its commitments because of falling production. It still owes Beijing about $20 billion.

According to sources at Caracas Capital, Venezuela has not paid a sovereign bond since December 2017, and is now in default on 16 sovereign bonds and coupons totaling $1.81 billion.

Now, with a new US package of sanctions in place, China’s multi-billion dollar lending as well as investments and business ties with countries like Russia, India, Turkey and others, are all put at risk.

Despite the ongoing crisis in Venezuela, New Delhi and Caracas have been continuing their joint investments in the energy sector. India is one of the largest buyers of Venezuelan crude, with over 400,000 bpd procured by Indian companies. The firms had plans to boost crude purchases from Venezuela in the future.

Venezuela is one of the major crude exporters in Latin America and its oil revenues account for about 98 percent of export earnings, according to OPEC. However, oil output fell 33,000 barrels daily from November and hit a new low in December, with 1.15 million barrels per day produced in contrast to more than 2 million in 2017.

Russia has several joint projects with the Latin American country, including in the energy, agricultural and defense sectors, among others. Investment in Venezuela exceeds $4.1 billion, with Russian energy giant Rosneft accounting for most of it. Trade turnover between Moscow and Caracas rose 48 percent in January-February last year, compared to the same period in 2017 and reached nearly $85 million.

Venezuela’s partner in the Middle East, Turkey was also maintaining close ties with Caracas despite the sanctions and international pressure. The sides were working on a deal to ship tons of gold to refine and certify in the Turkish city of Corum this year.

Caracas has been exporting its gold to Turkey for safekeeping since the beginning of last year. Statistics show that Turkey imported $900 million in gold – about 23.6 tons – from Venezuela in the first nine months of 2018. According to Mehmet Ozkan, a former Turkish official who worked on bilateral relations with Venezuela until last year, the main objective was to refine the raw metal and create a capital inflow to Venezuela, likely in the form of services because of US sanctions that prohibit financial institutions from dealing with Venezuela in dollars.

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Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
[Much on the Western tactics of regime change.] The tactics aren't always implement in any particular sequence, conforming only to what the situation is, in the targeted country. This pretty much summarizes the western "regime change" playbook tactics.

Good summary of the Western tactics of regime change, thanks.

However, the West does not have a lot of time. In 2015, the US dollar was still used for 52% of international payments; by 2017, just two years later, that had dropped to 40%. (Sorry, I've lost the links. But they were from SWIFT, the system used for international payments; these people ought to know.)

Clearly, the US dollar is not as popular internationally as it used to be. This is probably why the Fed had to stop its Quantitative Easing (money printing) and was forced to raise interest rates, to Trump's displeasure: other countries are starting to avoid the dollar. When the US currency is no longer the world's favorite reserve, Americans will suffer. Among many other consequences, they won't be able to support their military by printing dollars, so this military will be forced to shrink. And the Empire, which by then would be based almost entirely on military not economic power, would implode.


The title, "Quaid-e-Azam" means the leader of the country (Pakistan), whereas "Baba-e-Qaum" means father of the nation.

Thanks. It's interesting that "baba" also means "father" in Chinese. There could be some deep cultural connection somewhere.
 

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