China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?


Status
Not open for further replies.

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
America evil this, America evil that.

No, America does not want China to become more democratic because it would be "easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc" or that it would be "like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord." Believe it or not, many Americans truly believe in the ideals of human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact even if Americans did not believe in human rights, it is still the right thing to do, the Chinese people should have the right to freedom of speech and civil society without the government saying no.

It doesn't matter what many Americans truly believe if they are still all wrong and have false attributions, at the end of the day its still hegemony as the driving force.... Many Americans believe 5G causes COVID, that doesn't change the real facts. Not even sure why you keep arguing this point as if a false belief should be given more credit than the underlining forces that shape the dynamics of great power competition.
 

gadgetcool5

Junior Member
Registered Member
It doesn't matter what many Americans truly believe if they are still all wrong and have false attributions, at the end of the day its still hegemony as the driving force.... Many Americans believe 5G causes COVID, that doesn't change the real facts. Not even sure why you keep arguing this point as if a false belief should be given more credit than the underlining forces that shape the dynamics of great power competition.
Because in America's political system, popular belief has an impact on government policy. China would be in a much better shape if more Americans saw it as benign, rather than as a threat and adversary. The speed and comprehensiveness of the ongoing anti-China move in the US government is due to China having no friends in the US, when it easily could.
 

azuazu

Just Hatched
Registered Member
No, America does not want China to become more democratic because it would be "easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc" or that it would be "like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord." Believe it or not, many Americans truly believe in the ideals of human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact even if Americans did not believe in human rights, it is still the right thing to do, the Chinese people should have the right to freedom of speech and civil society without the government saying no.
Ah wonderful. You must be a representative of the American people and its government, seeing as you know what they want and believe.

Could you please enlighten the rest of us on what you mean by 'human rights', 'freedom of speech' and 'civil society'? Americans keep trying to sell those things to the rest of us but I'm looking at Libya, where human slavery is now back in vogue, and I'm getting the feeling there's quite a bit of false advertising here..
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
America evil this, America evil that.

No, America does not want China to become more democratic because it would be "easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc" or that it would be "like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord." Believe it or not, many Americans truly believe in the ideals of human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact even if Americans did not believe in human rights, it is still the right thing to do, the Chinese people should have the right to freedom of speech and civil society without the government saying no.
Except a US style democracy will lead China into civil war, balkanization and economic collapse. Sure, freedom of speech, civil rights and such sound great and look great on paper. Look at the economy of Ukraine. Look at the economic of Russia. Didn't they get rid of communist party 30 years ago? How well did they fare? The US might have the economic power to rebuild a capitalist Poland. But does it have the money to rebuild Russia? or Ukraine? China, on the other hand, has 1.4 billion people.

Of course, when things fail, the US and West will just say that it's their own fault.
Russia and and Ukraine didn't do well, it's their own fault.
The Arab spring failed, and it's their own fault.
Philippines, Argentina's economy went down the toilet because their culture is bad, their culture is not worthy of proving the success of the US style democracy.
It's never the fault of the Western liberalism and democracy.

And China is still encouraged to try out the US style democracy. And if it became successful, it will show how great US democracy is. If it fails, its shows how unworthy and stupid the Chinese culture is, they are too low to enjoy democratic success.
 

canniBUS

New Member
Registered Member
Unfortunately the liberal (here I mean classical enlightenment liberalism) idea of human rights and democracy is flawed and cannot deliver on its promise of liberty, equality, or fraternity. That is because the economic system of liberalism, capitalism, is based on depriving the population of the means to enjoy freedom by using private property law to keep land and productive machinery out of hands of the people. Marxism-Leninism is the only system that can actually bring about human rights and democracy.
 

Attachments

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
Because in America's political system, popular belief has an impact on government policy. China would be in a much better shape if more Americans saw it as benign, rather than as a threat and adversary. The speed and comprehensiveness of the ongoing anti-China move in the US government is due to China having no friends in the US, when it easily could.
No, just the opposite, because actually the irony is that in a so-called democratic government where the government has to resort to false flags, propaganda, and other CIA-like techniques to drive political agenda whilst still maintain the illusion of freedom/ democracy for the populous, its in fact top down governmental policy that trickles down "Inception" style as common themes under the labels of "freedom, democracy, etc" to give the people the illusion of choice whilst on the backend its always been the power elite running the show... If anything, democratic governments have to be more deceptive to their population because they have to smooth out the cogitative dissonance whenever policy/interests don't align with purported values/propaganda. Do you think the average American knew anything about Huawei before Trump, at the direction of the Deep State (as he calls it) embarked on his campaign against Huawei and 5G? American people don't see China as benign because the American government, its intelligence agencies and the media arms of the government all take directives from above to start China bashing as its containment effort of an ascendant China, nothing less and no more. AT&T was about to strike a deal with Huawei to offer their handsets /smartphones before US gov stepped in at the last moment and put a stop to it. I suppose that was something the American people decided too at the grassroots level? No, its clear cut case of top down government intervention / state intervention against private corporate interests... and it most certainty wasn't something the American people were lobbying their government to pursue.

I'll be honest with you, I think either you are trolling or you are incredibly misguided and naive in the workings of geopolitics. Focus on lithography.
 
Last edited:

gadgetcool5

Junior Member
Registered Member
Unfortunately the liberal (here I mean classical enlightenment liberalism) idea of human rights and democracy is flawed and cannot deliver on its promise of liberty, equality, or fraternity. That is because the economic system of liberalism, capitalism, is based on depriving the population of the means to enjoy freedom by using private property law to keep land and productive machinery out of hands of the people. Marxism-Leninism is the only system that can actually bring about human rights and democracy.
You can have a social democratic system, which combines the best ideas of modern liberalism (human rights and democracy, with personal liberty) and economic socialism (a strong welfare state, universal health care, housing, education, minimum wage, etc.) Most countries that run on this system are very stable, such as Scandinavian countries, and to a lesser extent Japan/South Korea/Taiwan. They are not collapsing. There is a lot of scaremongering going on that is not necessary. China is not Russia. Ironically Mao Zedong understood this better than some people today. If Mao had tried to learn everything about China's direction from Russia, he would never have succeeded in the Long March or the Chinese revolution.
 

canniBUS

New Member
Registered Member
No, just the opposite, because actually the irony is that in a so-called democratic government where the government has to resort to false flags, propaganda, and other CIA-like techniques to drive political agenda whilst still maintain the illusion of freedom/ democracy for the populous, its in fact top down governmental policy that trickles down "Inception" style as common themes under the labels of "freedom, democracy, etc" to give the people the illusion of choice whilst on the backend its always been the power elite running the show... Do you think the average American knew anything about Huawei before Trump, at the direction of the Deep State (as he calls it) embarked on his campaign against Huawei and 5G? American people don't see China as benign because the American government, its intelligence agencies and the media arms of the government all take directives from above. AT&T was about to strike a deal with Huawei to offer their handsets /smartphones before US gov stepped in at the last moment and put a stop to it. I suppose that was something the American people decided too?

I'll be honest with you, I think either you are trolling or you are incredibly misguided and naive in the workings of geopolitics.
The US political system is an oligarchy. There is no correlation between public opinion and the likelihood of a bill being passed by congress. However there is a strong correlation between elite opinion and the likelihood of a bill becoming law.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

You can have a social democratic system, which combines the best ideas of modern liberalism (human rights and democracy, with personal liberty) and economic socialism (a strong welfare state, universal health care, housing, education, minimum wage, etc.) Most countries that run on this system are very stable, such as Scandinavian countries, and to a lesser extent Japan/South Korea/Taiwan. They are not collapsing. There is a lot of scaremongering going on that is not necessary. China is not Russia. Ironically Mao Zedong understood this better than some people today. If Mao had tried to learn everything about China's direction from Russia, he would never have succeeded in the Long March or the Chinese revolution.
You have an elementary understanding of socialism, human rights and democracy. Welfare benefits are still capitalism because economic activity in those social democratic countries are still directed by profitability rather than rational planning, the means of production are primarily privately owned, and workers have no say on how the product of their labour is disposed. In short the M -> C -> M' circuit prevails in the economy, thus the system is capitalism. Further more European social democracy only existed due to imperialism and the threat of the USSR preventing the capitalist class from oppressing the working class to it's fullest extent. The USSR is gone now and the social democratic welfare programs are being dismantled all across Europe. Finally you should understand that capitalism is a temporary system, all the classical capitalist economists of the 18th and 19th centuries believed it to be. Only in the late 19th and early 20th century, after the system became entrenched, that a new breed of economists arose to act as priests to proselytize how capitalism is an eternal system transcending history and culture. Unfortunately for neo-classical apologists for capitalism, the rate of profit falls over time and that puts a clock on capitalism. We already see all of the degenerate "economic" activity that occurs in wall street since there is no profit to be made in actual productive investment into new factories, new machines, new production methods etc. Only financial strip-mining remains. Capitalism today is a cancer.

Personal liberty, or more generally, negative liberty, is a ridiculous concept. I'll let comrade Stalin's quote speak for me here.

I've already debunked the idea that the US political system is democracy above, it is an oligarchy. In fact, I expect the situation to be similar in all developed capitalist countries. There is a reason Marxists call it the dictatorship of capital. But I will add, elections and electoral systems are not democracy. Elections have always been the preferred method of oligarchy going back to ancient Greece. Democracy in contrast uses sortition, the random selection of political officers from the general population. If you know your science, you should know that random selection is the only scientific way to produce a representative sample from a population. The same applies to politics. So called "representative democracy" using elections is a farce, completely unrepresentative of the population, and favoring corrupt professional politicians who are better at talking that doing anything useful.
 

gadgetcool5

Junior Member
Registered Member
I actually live in America. I talk to Americans every day. You don't understand it.

Americans' attitude towards China isn't driven by the Deep State or the CIA. If anything, most Americans want an even tougher line on China than their government. I've seen many Americans say all tech companies should be banned from doing business with China, or that China should be cut off like North Korea and kicked out of the UN. Compared to that, the attitude of the Trump administration is moderate! What's driving these attitude is not the Deep State or the CIA. It's things like China's camps in Xinjiang and the National Security Law in Hong Kong. And China's constant fighting and disputes with all other countries. Also that China is blamed for coronavirus. Americans are fearful of China's more hardline direction. During the Hu Jintao era there was no problem.

Yes, America has oligarchial aspects, it has problems with it's political system. I'm not saying it's perfect. But there is a chance that Trump could be voted out this year and replaced by Biden. Could that happen in China? No. In America you can curse out the President, and say whatever you want against the President online without getting arrested. For minorities and the marginalized, America is often better. For example, if you are LGBT, you can get legally married in America but not China. You have a lot more rights than in China and politicians will pander to you if you belong to certain strategic voting areas.
 

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
I actually live in America. I talk to Americans every day. You don't understand it.

Americans' attitude towards China isn't driven by the Deep State or the CIA. If anything, most Americans want an even tougher line on China than their government. I've seen many Americans say all tech companies should be banned from doing business with China, or that China should be cut off like North Korea and kicked out of the UN. Compared to that, the attitude of the Trump administration is moderate! What's driving these attitude is not the Deep State or the CIA. It's things like China's camps in Xinjiang and the National Security Law in Hong Kong. And China's constant fighting and disputes with all other countries. Also that China is blamed for coronavirus. Americans are fearful of China's more hardline direction. During the Hu Jintao era there was no problem.

Yes, America has oligarchial aspects, it has problems with it's political system. I'm not saying it's perfect. But there is a chance that Trump could be voted out this year and replaced by Biden. Could that happen in China? No. In America you can curse out the President, and say whatever you want against the President online without getting arrested. For minorities and the marginalized, America is often better. For example, if you are LGBT, you can get legally married in America but not China. You have a lot more rights than in China and politicians will pander to you if you belong to certain strategic voting areas.
I don't speak for the other guy but I also live in America, I also work and talk with Americans everyday, and most of them are nice people. Some of them are racists but if they don't provoke them its never been much of an issue for me. I have noticed that where the closet racists come out in full force is when I go against norms and don't play the part of the good little Asian like they all expect me to... But don't conflate the issues, this has nothing to do with geopolitics.

You keep bringing up the issue of China not having "friends" and needing more "friendship" (as if that was the magic cure of it all) be it that of other nations or even befriending the American people... First of all "friendship" is a social construct, reductionist analytical overlay and label of an evolutionary adaption to certain survival strategies. See the difference between bonomo and chimpanzees.

But in geopolitics there are no friends, only interests... You should know that by now... Plus how exactly is China gonna make friends with the American people when the government itself is dead-set on provoking China, with the US Potus intentionally calling it the China Virus, the Sec of State calling China the Greatest Central Threat of our Times, and with other Trump admin/cabinet members openly calling for regime change in Beijing? If China tried making friends with the American people directly China would just get accused of intervening in US politics and it would never work anyway since there is no use in trying to affect American opinion using China media, any more than American government via VOA/NED/CIA has been able to turn the opinions of Chinese citizens against that of the Chinese government be it as they try...

"Friendship" serves hegemony, not the other way around. Don't forget that.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top