China need a new geopolitical Doctrine ?


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BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
1. That story is bull, only the American chattering class can produce something like that.

2. When the enemy is running away, you chase! Isn't that basic Sun Tzu Bing fa! You know what, I don't even remember.

3. The only new front that was problematic was the incident with the Indians. But, no one should be too concerned about that.

4. The most important next chapter in the story is November this year, and the signing of the RCEP, which was delayed a whole year because of the Indians.

5. That story is bull, because the bottom-line is China decided to press it advantage and not in the ways that mimic what the American chattering classes approve of. What do we have to say to that? We will say something that, but could cause a riot!

:D


One way or another it is still too early to say which system failed.... lets wait to see what happens in the US by the end of this year... I think there is couple suprises waiting for everyone that no one is gonna predict right now...

But for sure, China's easy days are over and in the rear view mirror...

The US government has awakened to that reality and now the long standing foreign policy with China has taken a dramatic u-turn, reverse course 180, etc and is especially blunt under the Trump administration but would still stay the course regardless who is the figurehead POTUS... its a repudiation of the US reapproachment with China 45 years ago... Pompeo himself recently said that US got nothing out of the nearly 50 year relationship and "nothing to show for it"... for sure, China's easy mode is over, and now has to seriously contend and defend itself against an anger and vicious Amerikkka that want nothing more than to rip China apart for daring to challenge the white world order...

US got wrong some of its core assumptions about China, that as China opened up its government would become more democratic (as in easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc) and its people would demand the so called freedum of speech and other so called liberties (so US can push its proganda into China and turn the Chinese citizens against their own "repressive" goverments if the said governments don't do what Washington asks etc) and all the way up until around 2013 America still believed that a stronger China was a net benefit to US hegemony rather than competition against it, because it was (in retrospect) overly confident in that end China would be ever content under the wings and umbrella of Uncle Sam and would acqueise much like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord.

If you understand what the US gov had planned for decades and that it didn't pan out, then you can understand why the US is so pissed off at China right now... US helped faciliate China's growth not out of the kindness of their heart, and certaintly not because they cared one iota about the wellbeing of the Chinese people, but because the endgame had always been to grow China large enough that one day when the it got ripe enough the US was planning on harvesting China, and recapturing that wealth by taking China to the slaughters and in essence China was supposed to be one big piggybank that the US was storing up for its own retirement phase! Instead China wised up and said no, and went for Africa, to give the African countries a better overall deal, and now in one fell swoop the US is in danger of losing its cheap labor pool and its resource pool (the objective was to have China always be America's cheap factory by making sure China never climbed out of the middle income trap and to keep Africa poor so it can get the lowest rates on resource extraction since a developing Africa would have more bargaining power and cause the price of commodities and resources to go up etc)

The American system, as it currently is, was always unsustainable and could only ever keep on keeping on if China went with it as well... America is not going to leave China alone no matter how peaceful China is because China takes up enough of the world pie that if it didn't willingly integrate under the US system and if it could go off and do its own thing or set up parallel system etc, then the US collapses and the house of cards comes crashing down...
 

horse

Senior Member
Registered Member
One way or another it is still too early to say which system failed....
Agree with what you are saying, I would like to add a couple of details, one detail in one post.

Although we do not know which system failed or who is going to win, at this particular moment in history, we can be 100% certain what will happen next.

What will happen next is China will offer the better deal.

One Belt One Road, all that is, it is a series of deal. Huawei 5G is the best 5G deal out there. The RCEP is a major trade deal that almost everyone wants a part of. The United States cannot do all this. Therefore, it compete with threats too often.

Against increasing American hostility towards China in it economic expansion outwards, all China has to do is offer a better deal. There is nothing else to do that is more effective. Offer the better deal, that is the best counter there is. That is never spoken about in detail in the Western media.

The recent Iran deal just another item that the United States could only watch helplessly, then they ban TikTok.

:cool:
 

horse

Senior Member
Registered Member
If you understand what the US gov had planned for decades and that it didn't pan out, then you can understand why the US is so pissed off at China right now...
Well, yeah, I thought I remember Jiang Zemin always saying that they sleep in the same bed but dreamed different dreams.

Which goes goes to the show the stark egotism of some voices in the West which disregards all other voices unapproved of, for whatever reasons. No wonder their children tearing down statues from the past.

In a lighter vein, I remember this scene from that famous Hollywood movie, Full Metal Jacket.

It is on Youtube, the clip is only a minute long, where they talk about the US Army's role in Vietnam. It was the Duality of Man scene in the movie.

Full Metal Jacket Born to Kill/Peace Button Duality of Man

:)
 

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
Agree with what you are saying, I would like to add a couple of details, one detail in one post.

Although we do not know which system failed or who is going to win, at this particular moment in history, we can be 100% certain what will happen next.

What will happen next is China will offer the better deal.

One Belt One Road, all that is, it is a series of deal. Huawei 5G is the best 5G deal out there. The RCEP is a major trade deal that almost everyone wants a part of. The United States cannot do all this. Therefore, it compete with threats too often.

Against increasing American hostility towards China in it economic expansion outwards, all China has to do is offer a better deal. There is nothing else to do that is more effective. Offer the better deal, that is the best counter there is. That is never spoken about in detail in the Western media.

The recent Iran deal just another item that the United States could only watch helplessly, then they ban TikTok.

:cool:

The only rules are those imposed by the constraints of the laws of physics, everything else goes in the fight to maintain/win hegemony... the US side knows that at current status quo if nothing drastic is done to change course that in the long run China will win...

So US will try everything possible outside the box to prevent that from happening... and as we have seen, even countries that initially welcomed the Huawei 5G (for the better deal) were pressured and really coerced/blackmailed in joining the US camp in terms of shunning away Chinese tech/deals... this is all US trying to protect its own hegemony, but fair or not, right or wrong, at the end of the day its result based, it is what US can achieve or what China hasn't achieved...

China is behind on PR, propaganda, informational warfare, and US holds the platforms of control and information chokepoints (Google platform, Apple ecosystem, Microsoft etc) and so a lot of tactics that the US can use on China, is asymmetrical and China cannot use the same to fight back etc...

In order of costs, its cheaper to use PR/spin/propaganda and information warfare to destabilize and color revolution a country and then do a coup than it is to invade that country.... for bigger nations like China, invasion would be way to expensive, and a coup is not all that likely since China has taken active measures to protect itself, but the US has other strategies like economic warfare, weaponizing its dollar hegemony, maybe even biowarfare, cyberwar, and basically a CIA mystery fire of ASML EUV machine here, ASF for pork price inflation there, overthrow of Bolivia elected leader to deprive China of the lithium contracts, well you get the picture, its containment of China by a thousand slices... China is at disadvantage here because China isn't good at PR, brainwashing, and China doesn't do false flag operations like Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, 911/ 7/7, covid, etc

US also has the ability to get its vassals to shoulder the burden of fighting China for it, even if its too costly for America to take down China by itself, it has the uncanny ability to recruit its vassals to put American interests about their own, politics above economics, and if US can unite together a good portion of the world all willing (coerced or otherwise but I think the US term is "partner of choice" which is doublespeak like free speech is only free to say what they allow to say, so the choice is there if only you choose the US lol ) to place the interest of US above that of the citizens of their own country then collectively that would be enough to reverse the tide and not only contain but also erase China's growth/ascension... this would be the worst outcome for China, to be isolated and bypassed on the world stage...
 

gadgetcool5

Junior Member
Registered Member
One way or another it is still too early to say which system failed.... lets wait to see what happens in the US by the end of this year... I think there is couple suprises waiting for everyone that no one is gonna predict right now...

But for sure, China's easy days are over and in the rear view mirror...

The US government has awakened to that reality and now the long standing foreign policy with China has taken a dramatic u-turn, reverse course 180, etc and is especially blunt under the Trump administration but would still stay the course regardless who is the figurehead POTUS... its a repudiation of the US reapproachment with China 45 years ago... Pompeo himself recently said that US got nothing out of the nearly 50 year relationship and "nothing to show for it"... for sure, China's easy mode is over, and now has to seriously contend and defend itself against an anger and vicious Amerikkka that want nothing more than to rip China apart for daring to challenge the white world order...

US got wrong some of its core assumptions about China, that as China opened up its government would become more democratic (as in easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc) and its people would demand the so called freedum of speech and other so called liberties (so US can push its proganda into China and turn the Chinese citizens against their own "repressive" goverments if the said governments don't do what Washington asks etc) and all the way up until around 2013 America still believed that a stronger China was a net benefit to US hegemony rather than competition against it, because it was (in retrospect) overly confident in that end China would be ever content under the wings and umbrella of Uncle Sam and would acqueise much like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord.

If you understand what the US gov had planned for decades and that it didn't pan out, then you can understand why the US is so pissed off at China right now... US helped faciliate China's growth not out of the kindness of their heart, and certaintly not because they cared one iota about the wellbeing of the Chinese people, but because the endgame had always been to grow China large enough that one day when the it got ripe enough the US was planning on harvesting China, and recapturing that wealth by taking China to the slaughters and in essence China was supposed to be one big piggybank that the US was storing up for its own retirement phase! Instead China wised up and said no, and went for Africa, to give the African countries a better overall deal, and now in one fell swoop the US is in danger of losing its cheap labor pool and its resource pool (the objective was to have China always be America's cheap factory by making sure China never climbed out of the middle income trap and to keep Africa poor so it can get the lowest rates on resource extraction since a developing Africa would have more bargaining power and cause the price of commodities and resources to go up etc)

The American system, as it currently is, was always unsustainable and could only ever keep on keeping on if China went with it as well... America is not going to leave China alone no matter how peaceful China is because China takes up enough of the world pie that if it didn't willingly integrate under the US system and if it could go off and do its own thing or set up parallel system etc, then the US collapses and the house of cards comes crashing down...

America evil this, America evil that.

No, America does not want China to become more democratic because it would be "easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc" or that it would be "like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord." Believe it or not, many Americans truly believe in the ideals of human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact even if Americans did not believe in human rights, it is still the right thing to do, the Chinese people should have the right to freedom of speech and civil society without the government saying no.
 

BMEWS

Junior Member
Registered Member
America evil this, America evil that.

No, America does not want China to become more democratic because it would be "easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc" or that it would be "like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord." Believe it or not, many Americans truly believe in the ideals of human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact even if Americans did not believe in human rights, it is still the right thing to do, the Chinese people should have the right to freedom of speech and civil society without the government saying no.


It doesn't matter what many Americans truly believe if they are still all wrong and have false attributions, at the end of the day its still hegemony as the driving force.... Many Americans believe 5G causes COVID, that doesn't change the real facts. Not even sure why you keep arguing this point as if a false belief should be given more credit than the underlining forces that shape the dynamics of great power competition.
 

gadgetcool5

Junior Member
Registered Member
It doesn't matter what many Americans truly believe if they are still all wrong and have false attributions, at the end of the day its still hegemony as the driving force.... Many Americans believe 5G causes COVID, that doesn't change the real facts. Not even sure why you keep arguing this point as if a false belief should be given more credit than the underlining forces that shape the dynamics of great power competition.

Because in America's political system, popular belief has an impact on government policy. China would be in a much better shape if more Americans saw it as benign, rather than as a threat and adversary. The speed and comprehensiveness of the ongoing anti-China move in the US government is due to China having no friends in the US, when it easily could.
 

azuazu

New Member
Registered Member
No, America does not want China to become more democratic because it would be "easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc" or that it would be "like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord." Believe it or not, many Americans truly believe in the ideals of human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact even if Americans did not believe in human rights, it is still the right thing to do, the Chinese people should have the right to freedom of speech and civil society without the government saying no.

Ah wonderful. You must be a representative of the American people and its government, seeing as you know what they want and believe.

Could you please enlighten the rest of us on what you mean by 'human rights', 'freedom of speech' and 'civil society'? Americans keep trying to sell those things to the rest of us but I'm looking at Libya, where human slavery is now back in vogue, and I'm getting the feeling there's quite a bit of false advertising here..
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
America evil this, America evil that.

No, America does not want China to become more democratic because it would be "easier for CIA influence/ coups/etc" or that it would be "like the Japanese during the 80's and the Plaza Accord." Believe it or not, many Americans truly believe in the ideals of human rights and democracy and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact even if Americans did not believe in human rights, it is still the right thing to do, the Chinese people should have the right to freedom of speech and civil society without the government saying no.

Except a US style democracy will lead China into civil war, balkanization and economic collapse. Sure, freedom of speech, civil rights and such sound great and look great on paper. Look at the economy of Ukraine. Look at the economic of Russia. Didn't they get rid of communist party 30 years ago? How well did they fare? The US might have the economic power to rebuild a capitalist Poland. But does it have the money to rebuild Russia? or Ukraine? China, on the other hand, has 1.4 billion people.

Of course, when things fail, the US and West will just say that it's their own fault.
Russia and and Ukraine didn't do well, it's their own fault.
The Arab spring failed, and it's their own fault.
Philippines, Argentina's economy went down the toilet because their culture is bad, their culture is not worthy of proving the success of the US style democracy.
It's never the fault of the Western liberalism and democracy.

And China is still encouraged to try out the US style democracy. And if it became successful, it will show how great US democracy is. If it fails, its shows how unworthy and stupid the Chinese culture is, they are too low to enjoy democratic success.
 

canniBUS

New Member
Registered Member
Unfortunately the liberal (here I mean classical enlightenment liberalism) idea of human rights and democracy is flawed and cannot deliver on its promise of liberty, equality, or fraternity. That is because the economic system of liberalism, capitalism, is based on depriving the population of the means to enjoy freedom by using private property law to keep land and productive machinery out of hands of the people. Marxism-Leninism is the only system that can actually bring about human rights and democracy.
 

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