China Flanker Thread II

[asif iqbal]

Not exactly sure. A lot of J-11B could be to fill up existing regiments and J-11BS could be used in any of the new Flanker regiments. So, we are not sure exactly. Each regiment probably has 24 aircraft, but some like First division may have more (like 30+). Also, the first regiment was using only AL-31F, so that doesn't count toward Taihang total. At this point, they should be able to produce 100 Taihang a year with no problem i would imagine.

Think that makes good sense since 2007/2008 at 100 engines per year would make say 500+ engines if we start to consider all the replacements and other aircrafts that have been produced with Taihang engines we could be looking at roughly this figure

Once J16, J15 and J10B start using Taihang demand could be stretched even if they cease J11B production let's say they build 24 x J16 and 24 x J15 per year plus 24 x J10B the 100 production rate won't match aircraft production since for each Flanker you need two Taihang engines

So either they supplement with AL-31 or up production of Taihang

 

[tphuang]

Think that makes good sense since 2007/2008 at 100 engines per year would make say 500+ engines if we start to consider all the replacements and other aircrafts that have been produced with Taihang engines we could be looking at roughly this figure

Once J16, J15 and J10B start using Taihang demand could be stretched even if they cease J11B production let's say they build 24 x J16 and 24 x J15 per year plus 24 x J10B the 100 production rate won't match aircraft production since for each Flanker you need two Taihang engines

So either they supplement with AL-31 or up production of Taihang

Well for J-15/16, they have to use Taihang in production versions, so I think J-11B production stops at some point while the engines go to these projects. For J-10B, we will have to wait and see. Btw, 24 J-15 and 24 J-16 is quite an ambitious total that I don't think will happen.

 

[thunderchief]

IMHO, J-15 would most likely use Russian engines for some time, as few extra kN ( AL-31 M1, maybe AL-31 M2 ) could mean couple hundred kg more in STOBAR take-off . Other variants of Chinese Flankers would gradually switch to domestic engines.

 

[tphuang]

IMHO, J-15 would most likely use Russian engines for some time, as few extra kN ( AL-31 M1, maybe AL-31 M2 ) could mean couple hundred kg more in STOBAR take-off . Other variants of Chinese Flankers would gradually switch to domestic engines.

it would be preferable for that to be the case, but where are they getting these engines from?

 

[coolieno99]

Re: J-11BS with WS-10A engine afterbuner

Picture like this makes me doubt J-20's engine is AL-31FM.

If WS-10 engine have blue flames as well, then there is a very high probability that J-20 is currently using WS-10 engine as well. Most likely an upgraded WS-10 engine !!

This might also explain why China do not buy Su-35, because they already have engine comparable to 117S, the only thing 117S has left is its TVC technology, which China do not have at the moment.

The flame is blue because the afterburner is not lit. All military jet engines produce "blue" flames when the afterburner is not lit. When the afterburner is lit, the color change to "yellow-orange". The actual color depends on lighting condition, angle, time of day, type of camera, ... etc.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-11BS with WS-10A engine afterbuner

The flame is blue because the afterburner is not lit. All military jet engines produce "blue" flames when the afterburner is not lit. When the afterburner is lit, the color change to "yellow-orange". The actual color depends on lighting condition, angle, time of day, type of camera, ... etc.

Nyet Komrade! if you are observing an external flame, the burner is LIT, or the engine is on fire,,,, flame color is wholly controlled by mixture. Blue being a more efficient mixture, when lighting an acetylene torch, you open the acetaline and light it usually producing a red to yellow flame, you add oxygen with your valve until the flame becomes blue,,, if you are welding you heating both piece of metal that you wish to bond as well as your brazing rod, which you melt into the two pieces by "melting" or welding them together. If you are using a cutting tip the procedure is the same, you adjust the air and oxygen to a nice blue flame, begin heating the metal you are attempting to cut, and when the metal is nearly molten, you introduce a lot more oxygen via a pull bar on the handle to "cut" the molten metal, makes a very Kool hissing sound as you add oxygen?? SSSHHHHHHH! SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHH! as you hit the O2, and the sparks fly...

an afterburner is not very efficient hence lots of them have the red/yellow flame, if the burner is blue, it is a much more efficient mixture, not overly rich with fuel, if you increase the fuel without increasing oxygen, you flame will Yellow to Red shift... Turbines at low altitude have a difficult time getting enough O2 through them due to speed limits/operational factors and produce a lot of soot or black smoke which is unburned fuel,,, hence the term "oil burner route" for low altitude military operations area? simple physics, and as always "logical", why I love this stuff so much?

 

[Scratch]

I will throw in that I believe to have made the observation that the color of the afterburner flame is related to the bypass ratio of the engine. The engines in most western fighters (F404, F414, EJ200 etc.) have a really low BPR of around 0.2 I believe. They burn moslty yellowish in AB. The russian AL-31s (and also the RD-33?) are closer to 0.5, with the flame generally being a little more blueish.
The B-1, with a higher BPR also has a blue AB flame. As do (even more so) russian bombers with yet higher BPRs. Implying of course that with a higher BPR, more air is routed around the core, meaning there's more fresh air (O2) available to be burned in the AB section for a cleaner combustion.

 

[Air Force Brat]

I will throw in that I believe to have made the observation that the color of the afterburner flame is related to the bypass ratio of the engine. The engines in most western fighters (F404, F414, EJ200 etc.) have a really low BPR of around 0.2 I believe. They burn moslty yellowish in AB. The russian AL-31s (and also the RD-33?) are closer to 0.5, with the flame generally being a little more blueish.
The B-1, with a higher BPR also has a blue AB flame. As do (even more so) russian bombers with yet higher BPRs. Implying of course that with a higher BPR, more air is routed around the core, meaning there's more fresh air (O2) available to be burned in the AB section for a cleaner combustion.

very good master Scratch!

 

[Equation]

Re: J-11BS with WS-10A engine afterbuner

Nyet Komrade! if you are observing an external flame, the burner is LIT, or the engine is on fire,,,, flame color is wholly controlled by mixture. Blue being a more efficient mixture, when lighting an acetylene torch, you open the acetaline and light it usually producing a red to yellow flame, you add oxygen with your valve until the flame becomes blue,,, if you are welding you heating both piece of metal that you wish to bond as well as your brazing rod, which you melt into the two pieces by "melting" or welding them together. If you are using a cutting tip the procedure is the same, you adjust the air and oxygen to a nice blue flame, begin heating the metal you are attempting to cut, and when the metal is nearly molten, you introduce a lot more oxygen via a pull bar on the handle to "cut" the molten metal, makes a very Kool hissing sound as you add oxygen?? SSSHHHHHHH! SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHH! as you hit the O2, and the sparks fly...

an afterburner is not very efficient hence lots of them have the red/yellow flame, if the burner is blue, it is a much more efficient mixture, not overly rich with fuel, if you increase the fuel without increasing oxygen, you flame will Yellow to Red shift... Turbines at low altitude have a difficult time getting enough O2 through them due to speed limits/operational factors and produce a lot of soot or black smoke which is unburned fuel,,, hence the term "oil burner route" for low altitude military operations area? simple physics, and as always "logical", why I love this stuff so much?

Deeemmm, spoken like a true aeronautical Jedi you are Brat!

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-11BS with WS-10A engine afterbuner

Deeemmm, spoken like a true aeronautical Jedi you are Brat!

You guys might want to check out my Air Asia Airbus 321, simulation, numbers generated by flight test are in the ball park of the early release,,,, no doubt I am prolly the last to present a simulation, and in fact you can bet that Air Asia has simulated this whole scenario in a full cockpit simulator, likely with a Senior Captain, and a foreign co-pilot to generate some data, they likely did this before the actual wreckage was found in order to assist search teams to locate the aircraft. That is on the Malaysian flight 370 is missing thread. These kind of co-incidences are very "weird" to the laymen, but to us old heads, these things are almost predictable at times?? you will note that my initial speculation, were to the point, these weather related/thunderstorm accidents are all variations on a theme. While I could have recovered the aircraft at 1,000 points, as the aircraft was not technically "departed" or out of control, but I simulated what a crew that was weather disoriented might have done in attempting to save the the airplane??? thanks brat