China demographics thread.


sinophilia

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There are too many humans on the planet already and the reduction in fertility that corresponds with development worldwide is eminently a good thing; if population growth (or rather, mitigation of population decline) is required to serve nationalist ends that should be achieved through immigration.

Totally man, lets turn China into America (which is itself increasingly turning into Latin America and India) and permanently demographically change the country.

Sounds like a swell idea.
 

Godzilla

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Totally man, lets turn China into America (which is itself increasingly turning into Latin America and India) and permanently demographically change the country.

Sounds like a swell idea.
Actually it is a good idea. Notice how Chinese tend to assimilate people, rather than the other way round, especially with the proportions/concentration. As long as they put in some kind of merit based system taking the talents from around the world, don't see how it can be a bad thing. It is not as if people will immigrate to China to leach off the health care and social security system lol...
 

Chilled_k6

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That's true. However my point still stands, the problem in the demographics is not declining sperm count but people using contraceptives to avoid conceiving a child

If we had people who actively wanted to have children but couldn't conceive then I would admit that the declined sperm count was the issue. However, the problem currently, is that peiple are actively taking measures to avoid having a child

Btw declining sperm count is a serious medium-long term problem which IMO will be eventually solved by medical advances in the future

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From 2007 to 2020, the infertility rates in China have increased from 12 percent to 18 percent, and more couples with fertility difficulties are choosing to have children through assisted reproductive technology, The Paper reported.

I think there is merit that people have trouble naturally conceiving. That's quite a lot of couples that want children but need treatment. But you're right that it's mainly because people aren't willing in the first place.
 

gadgetcool5

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A reminder that the East Asian fertility collapse is NOT some inevitable result of modern society or pollution, there are modern, developed societies going through baby booms right now:

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"After a staggering 16.5 percent more births than normal in the second quarter of 2021, Iceland has struggled to increase capacity in its maternity wards. Finland has seen a 7 percent leap in births, and Denmark and Norway have experienced 3 and 5 percent bumps, respectively. (Sweden boasts a very modest 1 percent increase). "

The situation is uniquely the worst in East Asia.
 

gadgetcool5

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Correct: birth rates are largely cultural and given that culture in Asia (filial piety, rat race, etc) is explicitly anti-natalist, it makes it *very difficult* to increase the number of births without completely restructuring and overhauling culture
What's weird is that East Asian culture is not anti-natalist at all. For older Chinese parents at least, there's huge pressure to marry off their children (particularly daughters relatively young) and huge pressure to have grandchildren. Hence the whole idea of "Sheng Nu" Traditional Chinese culture has valued family more than Western culture, and it has been a lot less individualistic. So these trends are going against and despite explicitly pro-natalist biases in Chinese culture.
 

BoraTas

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A reminder that the East Asian fertility collapse is NOT some inevitable result of modern society or pollution, there are modern, developed societies going through baby booms right now:

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"After a staggering 16.5 percent more births than normal in the second quarter of 2021, Iceland has struggled to increase capacity in its maternity wards. Finland has seen a 7 percent leap in births, and Denmark and Norway have experienced 3 and 5 percent bumps, respectively. (Sweden boasts a very modest 1 percent increase). "

The situation is uniquely the worst in East Asia.
I worked in both China and the Netherlands. So let me say one thing. Here in northern Europe very few engineers work more than 40 hours per week. A lot of them actually work for 30-35 hours. In East Asia, 75 hours is not rare. As far as I see Taiwan, Japan and South Korea are even worse for university graduates. In China, a lot of qualified jobs didn't want more than 50 hours of work per week. On the other hand, the rest of East Asia would demand 60+ hours at least. In less qualified jobs all of them want 70+ hours. It is no wonder East Asian demographics are horrible. People have almost no life outside the workplace.
 

sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
What's weird is that East Asian culture is not anti-natalist at all. For older Chinese parents at least, there's huge pressure to marry off their children (particularly daughters relatively young) and huge pressure to have grandchildren. Hence the whole idea of "Sheng Nu" Traditional Chinese culture has valued family more than Western culture, and it has been a lot less individualistic. So these trends are going against and despite explicitly pro-natalist biases in Chinese culture.

Exactly lol, this dynamic is entirely Western. Bunch of young Chinese kids that want to emulate Westerners in everything, including having no kids. Because having kids is for 'poor' people. It's ridiculous.

The Indian troll (who can't even do basic arithmetic) is wrong of course, as he always is. It's the avoidance of Chinese traditional norms that is destroying fertility, obviously not the other way around.

I'm glad the government is beginning to get more nationalistic. Not just some Marxist jargon, but actual nationalism and pride in ones people. I think we will start to see big moves in the birth rate in a few years. But changing the cultural norms of young people will take a while. Don't expect it to make a noticeable impression till the latter half of the decade.
 

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