Can Kill J-20 & T-50, Says Eurofighter

S

Skywatcher

Captain
HKSDU said:
Absurd for some of you to think that a fighter can outrun a AAM, to evade a AAM is either make it burn out its fuel or decoys.
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You can outrun an AAM if the other guy fires off the AAM at its maximum engagement range, your MAWS picks up the AAM, and then you high tail it out of there on full afterburners. Of course, most pilots aren't that incompetent (firing an AAM at maximum engagement range).
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Skywatcher said:
Of course a Eurofighter can shoot down a F-22A. The question is over the cost ratio (after all, if you had a thousand MiG-21s and one F-22A, the MiGs would eventually win).

And you still haven't provided data on the Iraqi MiG-25 vs. the F-16 fight. For all we know the MiG-25 was going at Mach 1.5.

Here's the thing about your little Eurofighter vs F-22 fantasy: ok, so maybe the Eurofighter can pick up the F-22A at 40-80km, assuming that the E Captor can burn through jamming and such. The problem for Typhoon is that the F-22A will have already picked up the Eurofighter well outside of any possible E Captor detection range of the F-22A, and thus gets to fire its AMRAAM first. A F-22 probably won't be able to outrun a Meteor at a certain range, the Eurofighter certainly won't be able to outrun an AIM-120 AMRAAM instead the no escape zone. So the F-22A shoots first. Guess who would come out ahead in the majority of such engagements?
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Look the question is Eurofighter as well F-22 won`t fly one on one fights but AWACS ground stations, IRST and E-captor vs APG-77.

Second by using data link E-captor or Irbis can sweep not 300-400km but 2000kms, it means Eurofighter can use data link to guide the Meteor into the F-22 and two or three Eurofighter guard a zone wide enough to make very hard for F-22s to remain hidden.

Now returning to the MiG-25, the MiG-25 can achieve Mach 2.8 but it has been downed by F-15s and F-16s which are slower.

The F-22 is a Mach 2 aircraft, Eurofighter flies at Mach 2.


Second the F-22 and all these 5th generation fighters are delicate machines, maintainance intensive machines what translates in lower flying hours less training and reliability.

Ask your self why T-50 has more conventional lines than F-22? (rounded nacelles) the reason is the Russians are aware more complexities are not worthed if you need more numbers and more reliability.

F-35 is the same.

more than 700 Eurofighters will be built but just a mere 180 F-22s.

Radar and IRST technologies can and will render stealth obsolete, for such reason F-35 is not as stealthy looking as F-22 in order to built 10 times or 20 times more F-35s than F-22s.

The reason is the real kill ratio as technology advances is worse every year for F-22s
 
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S

Skywatcher

Captain
MiG-29 said:
Look the question is Eurofighter as well F-22 won`t fly one on one fights but AWACS ground stations, IRST and E-captor vs APG-77.

Second by using data link E-captor or Irbis can sweep not 300-400km but 2000kms, it means Eurofighter can use data link to guide the Meteor into the F-22 and two or three Eurofighter guard a zone wide enough to make very hard for F-22s to remain hidden.
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And the F-22A's AIM-120 can do the same with its AWACS and other C4I assets to guide multiple AMRAAMS are multiple Eurofighters via datalinks. Which brings us back to the flight envelope ceiling and speed, and no escape zone of the BVRAAM.

And from what anatomical nether regions did you pull that 2000km range from?

Now returning to the MiG-25, the MiG-25 can achieve Mach 2.8 but it has been downed by F-15s and F-16s which are slower.
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I see that you have provided no data on the MiG-25's altitude and speed in that F-16 engagement (since you now invoke the F-15s, the onus is on you to provide information about said engagements). So you are just making it up as you go along, just like your fairy tale about IRST and AESA completely cancelling out stealth.

It sounds about as credible as citing the Russian general who made up that claim about upgraded MiG-31s hunting F-22As. Or that Arabs will only eat wheat, not rice.

Second the F-22 and all these 5th generation fighters are delicate machines, maintainance intensive machines what translates in lower flying hours less training and reliability.

Ask your self why T-50 has more conventional lines than F-22? (rounded nacelles) the reason is the Russians are aware more complexities are not worthed if you need more numbers and more reliability.
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Maybe, maybe the Russian manufacturing capability has decreased in competency since the end of the Cold War. Soviet science and engineering isn't what it used to be.

And how does the EF-2000 compare in reliability and man hours per flight hour ratio?

more than 700 Eurofighters will be built but just a mere 180 F-22s.

Radar and IRST technologies can and will render stealth obsolete, for such reason F-35 is not as stealthy looking as F-22 in order to built 10 times or 20 times more F-35s than F-22s.

The reason is the real kill ratio as technology advances is worse every year for F-22s
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And will all 700 EF-2000s be controlled by the same air force of a sovereign entity? Maybe Putin will command all the EF-2000 operators to go forth and go battle with the yankee imperialist pigs?

Radar and IRST technologies will reduce the effectiveness of stealth. That does not mean that they will make it obsolete. And stealth is not the only factor for the F-22A's superiority. Even if you take away the stealth somehow, F-22A includes a combination of radar, other avionics and senors, speed, climbing rate and altitude to produce a world beater that the EF-2000 can't meet.
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Skywatcher said:
And the F-22A's AIM-120 can do the same with its AWACS and other C4I assets to guide multiple AMRAAMS are multiple Eurofighters via datalinks. Which brings us back to the flight envelope ceiling and speed, and no escape zone of the BVRAAM.

And from what anatomical nether regions did you pull that 2000km range from?


I see that you have provided no data on the MiG-25's altitude and speed in that F-16 engagement (since you now invoke the F-15s, the onus is on you to provide information about said engagements). So you are just making it up as you go along, just like your fairy tale about IRST and AESA completely cancelling out stealth.

It sounds about as credible as citing the Russian general who made up that claim about upgraded MiG-31s hunting F-22As. Or that Arabs will only eat wheat, not rice.


Maybe, maybe the Russian manufacturing capability has decreased in competency since the end of the Cold War. Soviet science and engineering isn't what it used to be.

And how does the EF-2000 compare in reliability and man hours per flight hour ratio?


And will all 700 EF-2000s be controlled by the same air force of a sovereign entity? Maybe Putin will command all the EF-2000 operators to go forth and go battle with the yankee imperialist pigs?

Radar and IRST technologies will reduce the effectiveness of stealth. That does not mean that they will make it obsolete. And stealth is not the only factor for the F-22A's superiority. Even if you take away the stealth somehow, F-22A includes a combination of radar, other avionics and senors, speed, climbing rate and altitude to produce a world beater that the EF-2000 can't meet.
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The F-22 once it uses radar becomes detectable, in fact for the F-22 in order to remain hidden needs data link, but here is where Irbis-E and E-captor will do their job, Eurofigher will have a 4:1 advantage in production numbers and operational deployment.

Ask your self why the US capped the production number of F-22 to 180 even if it is so superior to F-35?

The answer is simply the jet is becoming obsolete and it is ultra expensive.

So if you can deploy 3 Eurofighters for each F-22 and 3 E-captors for each APG-77, so you have an APG-77 that has to remain silent because the contemporary APG-81 can even jammed and detect it, so 3 E-Captors can sweep by data link an Area 3 times larger than what the APG-77 can and they can also jam the APG-77 and also detect it.

Now see why you will deploy F-35? answer is numbers, the jet can not supercruise but larger numbers will mean the US will be able to survive attrition losses, something it can not do with F-22.


Add now new generation SAMs, AWACs and you will find the Americans now Stealth is beatable.

You can fit to Eurofighter the same avionics the F-22 will use to detect the T-50 and J-20.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
MiG-29 said:
The F-22 once it uses radar becomes detectable, in fact for the F-22 in order to remain hidden needs data link, but here is where Irbis-E and E-captor will do their job, Eurofigher will have a 4:1 advantage in production numbers and operational deployment.
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You obviously don't understand how AESA radars in particular and Low probability of intercept radars work, do you?

Here's a link:
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Ask your self why the US capped the production number of F-22 to 180 even if it is so superior to F-35?

The answer is simply the jet is becoming obsolete and it is ultra expensive.
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What part about the F-35 being multirole as opposed to the F-22A's air superiority mission do you simply not understand?!

And if the Eurofighter is so wonderful, then why are Britain and Germany cutting down their orders?

So if you can deploy 3 Eurofighters for each F-22 and 3 E-captors for each APG-77, so you have an APG-77 that has to remain silent because the contemporary APG-81 can even jammed and detect it, so 3 E-Captors can sweep by data link an Area 3 times larger than what the APG-77 can and they can also jam the APG-77 and also detect it.
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Source, please.
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Skywatcher said:
You obviously don't understand how AESA radars in particular and Low probability of intercept radars work, do you?

Here's a link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




What part about the F-35 being multirole as opposed to the F-22A's air superiority mission do you simply not understand?!

And if the Eurofighter is so wonderful, then why are Britain and Germany cutting down their orders?


Source, please.
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Airborne detection of stealth aircraft may already be an operational capability. In a series of tests at Edwards AFB, Calif., in 2009, Lockheed Martin’s CATbird avionics testbed—a Boeing 737 that carries the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s entire avionics system—engaged a mixed force of F-22s and Boeing F-15s and was able to locate and jam F-22 radars, according to researchers. Raytheon’s family of X-band airborne AESA radar—in particular, those on upgraded F-15Cs stationed in Okinawa—can detect small, low-signature cruise missiles.

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Why Irbis-E and E-captor would not do the same?

[video=youtube;p8C06dHhlXc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8C06dHhlXc&feature=player_embedded[/video]
watch minute 1:20

Irbis-E can cover 2000-3000km via data link, so pretty much for F-22 in 2011 is hard to hide, in 2020 it will be harder
[video=youtube;WFWKyTcGFas]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFWKyTcGFas[/video]
now add these
[video=youtube;jNJoYwUQWmI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNJoYwUQWmI&feature=related[/video]
[video=youtube;DiinNwfNi1w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiinNwfNi1w&feature=player_embedded[/video]

[video=youtube;u3vQfh-QwwQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3vQfh-QwwQ&feature=player_embedded[/video]

[video=youtube;1GcAUaLrPNU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GcAUaLrPNU&feature=player_embedded[/video]

you will see by 2020 you will need numbers of F-35 to cover for attrition rate
 
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S

Skywatcher

Captain
And exactly what proof do you have that the Irbis E and E CAPTOR can do the same (and that article doesn't say jamming the APG/77 under what parameters)? Those radars aren't even operational yet.

2,000-3000km? Do you realize how increasing the number of platforms increases the points of failure in a network like in air to air combat (guess what happens when the F-22/J20/T50 starts picking off the Su-35s one by one)?
 
MiG-29

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Skywatcher said:
And exactly what proof do you have that the Irbis E and E CAPTOR can do the same (and that article doesn't say jamming the APG/77 under what parameters)? Those radars aren't even operational yet.

2,000-3000km? Do you realize how increasing the number of platforms increases the points of failure in a network like in air to air combat (guess what happens when the F-22/J20/T50 starts picking off the Su-35s one by one)?
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The AGP-81 does it why the E-captor can not do it?
The Threat
• Complex scenarios with high agile airborne and ground based threats in
combination with asymmetric warfare
• Detection of difficult targets with low Radar Cross Section
• Difficult electronic warfare environment
Facing the Challenge
• Active electronic beam steering with nearly instantaneously repositioning
of radar beam enables faster detection and increased tracking ranges
• AESA technology with flexible radar resource management will improve
tracking performance/track robustness and missile guidance for
simultaneous multi target scenarios.
• Fast beam steering and high reliability of AESA will increase the
operational effectiveness and mission availability of fighter aircraft
• Cooperative/network centric operations will counter the growing
numbers of threats
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however the question is not if it can do it or not, the question is when can it do it, you are just avoiding a reality, what the AN/APG-77 or AN/APG-81 do other radars can do too.

In fact the F-22 passed already its prime, most modern fighters are using data link to have a wider view of the battlefield, from JAS-39s to Rafales they are doing the same thing F-22 or F-35 do, it is a fact Eurofighter is very close to a fifth generation aircraft in performance and avionics, future trenches will get even closer.

You main premise was F-22 will fire first, however as radar technology advances, the posibility Eurofighter will be able to fire at safe range or at least equal ranges is not far off, several radars are not a disadvantage, in fact F-22 uses the same system, the difference it is thought that radar technology has not yet catch up with stealth, so the idea is eurofighter will be in disadvantage, but as radar technology advances that becomes less likely.
 
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navyreco

navyreco

Senior Member
Rafale say (through pictures from exercise in EAU last year) can kill F22 Raptor
“Front Sector Optronics” -FSO

rafale for malaysia​

Developed by THALES, the “Front Sector Optronics” (FSO) system is fully integrated into the aircraft. Operating in the optronic wavelengths, it is immune to radar jamming and it provides covert long-range detection and identification, high resolution multi-target angular tracking and laser range-finding for air, sea and ground targets.

With its narrow field, the visible waveband capability is truly valuable to identify targets in situations where visual contact is required by the rules of engagement.
rafale_68.jpg
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