Can Kill J-20 & T-50, Says Eurofighter

Miragedriver · Dec 2, 2011

The Rafale is more of a multi-role fighter than the current Eurofighter. However that is not to say that the Eurofighter will soon be at par. Not wanting to get into an argument as to which is a better dogfighter between the Rafale, Eurofighter, or the SU-35 we need to ask a couple of questions about the above mentioned aircraft including the J-20 and T-50:

1) The Rafale, Eurofighter, and SU-35 are all currently in production and going through the teething process. Consequently they will get better with time as improvements to the airframe, Avionics and prolusion become available. The J-20 and T-50 are not in production (en mass) and will have some time to go on the learning curve.

2) Since the aircraft will be operating in a “stealth” environment. The aircraft with the best IRST system will have a jump on the opponent.

3) If one side has a better AESA radar.

4) If one side has extensive use of AWAC, data link and superior ECM package.

There seem to be many variables that can tip the balance to one side or another.

Skywatcher · Dec 2, 2011

MiG-29 said:
in my opinion, Eurofighter might at the end of the day being able to beat 5th generation fighters, all these so called stealth fighters are low observable, but not invisible to radar, but here the question lies on what radar type, power density increases each day, so in my opinion more advanced radars will render shaping and RAM obsolete sooner or later.

Stealth only works as part of a system where jamming, radar silence and the range of a radar system is known.

If a stealth fighter loses its cloack of invisibility, then supercruise kicks in, in 1990 well F-22 was absolutely supreme but these days you have fighters with supercruise and thrust vectoring without too much low observable features like Su-35S or Eurofighter, these fighters once detecting the fifth generation rival are on par with them.

Even then, the F-22 (and probably the J-20 and PAK-FA too) still have the advantage in speed, altitude and probably radar size as well.

MiG-29 · Dec 2, 2011

Skywatcher said:
Even then, the F-22 (and probably the J-20 and PAK-FA too) still have the advantage in speed, altitude and probably radar size as well.

The only true advantage i see for the 5th generation is shaping, however power density plays the more important part, if power density increases stealth fighters become more detectable, IRST systems play another part, so if J-20 wants to detect the F-22 it will need radars and IRST systems able to do it, otherwise the J-20 and F-22 never will fight each other.

the same technologies will be applied and fitted to Eurofighter, so with newer more powerful engines with TVC nozzles it will be possible to Eurofighter to get close to a 5th generation fighter.

As Mirage driver put it, the best IRST, radar and AWACS will give the true advantage, of course fighting a T-50 will be harder Su-35S but having a better radar will mean T-50 will have less advantages.

So i will put it like this, if Eurofighter ios fitted with radars capable to detect Fifth generation fighters and IRST that can cue AAMs, then it is possible Eurofighter will be capable of downing a F-35, J-20 or a T-50

plawolf · Dec 2, 2011

Shaping is a comparative, not absolute advantage. Put any stealth plane close enough to a radar powerful enough and it will be detected, even today. The key is, and has always been at what range.

It is stupid to think only one side will benefit from improving radar technology. If both sides have radar of similar performance, a 5th gen will always be able to detect a 4.5 gen first, thereby gaining a critical tactical advantage.

Depending on how much of a sensor range advantage the 5th gen enjoys, and if battlespace conditions allows, a 5th gen could easily circle round and flank a 4.5 gen by coming at it from the side, thereby avoiding the 4.5 gen's radar altogether.

Even if such a flanking move was not practical, first detection would also give the 5th gen all sorts of advantages in combat, as the 5th gen can better prepare by climbing and increasing speed to give it's missiles the best chance of a successful intercept. In such a scenario, the 5th gen will also very likely get first shot as well.

Relying on IRST is not a great idea because even the best current IRST cannot reliably detect 5th gens, of any fighter for that matter, at significantly greater ranges than radars, and are greatly affected by the weather.

TerraN_EmpirE · Dec 2, 2011

MiG-29 said:
In my opinion, Eurofighter and even Su-35S will be around for a couple of decades more for the following reason:

how is a J-20 going to detect and down a F-22 or a F-22 down a T-50?

The answer is they have to detect the other stealth fighter via IRSTs or Radar sensors, it means somehow they have to detect the rival, these technologies can be fitted unto the Eurofighter and Su-35S.

Missiles are the same., they need sensor that feed up information. Sensors is the magic word.

You'r Argument is flawed in the Fallowing areas. First you are assuming that the J20 is not detected before the Raptor. next the Catbird used the same systems as a F35 meaning other then a it's non stealth radar signature it was using the sensors of a Gen 5 platform sensors that will likely be worked into Raptors and Lightnings as well as assuming that the Stealth characteristics are fixed. As Time goes by however it likely that these two will change remember the coatings of the B2 skin are being updated and with two stealth fighters in production ( one early ) and a third under pre-development it's likely that new coating and techniques will be continued on a regular basis

I Agree the Typhoon and Rafal will likely remain underproduction and other 4.5's will continue there life cycles I never Said it was the end now Did I? Here in the US We are extending the life cycle of the F15c/d and E. the sensor suites of a Gen 5 can be worked into the gen 4 making it a gen 4.5 but the kicker is that despite this the gen 5 has the advantage it is up too the gen 4 and 4.5 too find her and kill her, but with a smaller RCS she will be harder too spot as well as (at least In the case of the Raptor) reduced IR signature ( the other job of those nozzles) but even if that fails she can still turn and burn just as well as any other fighter in other words. even if stealth is render mute she can still mix it up as a brawler on par if not still better then a gen4.5 because as a bonus of her stealth her internal weapons carry makes her sleeker by reducing drag on her frame allowing better speed and maneuverability.
I agreed With Mig about about a upgrade too the Typhoon, But I still side with a gen 5 although I still side with the J20 lagging in areas of maneuverability and Avionics. the t50 I know will be a dancer but I doubt her and avionics are game changes. F35 has other side of the coin she packs the brains and the sensors but lacks the moves and arms( although touted has having a heaver weapons load then the Raptor the fact often left out was Raptor carries more inside the frame then the F35. meaning well a lightning flying Air superiority stealthily will have 4 Air too air missiles and between 180 too 220 rounds 25mm a Raptor on the same mission will have 4 medium air too air missiles and two close in IR guided killers plus 480 rounds of 20mm.)
Typhoon might be able too mix it up with raptor and if the pilot is good she might stand a chance but if it came too a fight my money is on Raptor.

And so As the mouse trap becomes better the mouse too leads the curve.

MiG-29 · Dec 2, 2011

plawolf said:
Shaping is a comparative, not absolute advantage. Put any stealth plane close enough to a radar powerful enough and it will be detected, even today. The key is, and has always been at what range.

It is stupid to think only one side will benefit from improving radar technology. If both sides have radar of similar performance, a 5th gen will always be able to detect a 4.5 gen first, thereby gaining a critical tactical advantage.

Depending on how much of a sensor range advantage the 5th gen enjoys, and if battlespace conditions allows, a 5th gen could easily circle round and flank a 4.5 gen by coming at it from the side, thereby avoiding the 4.5 gen's radar altogether.

Even if such a flanking move was not practical, first detection would also give the 5th gen all sorts of advantages in combat, as the 5th gen can better prepare by climbing and increasing speed to give it's missiles the best chance of a successful intercept. In such a scenario, the 5th gen will also very likely get first shot as well.

Relying on IRST is not a great idea because even the best current IRST cannot reliably detect 5th gens, of any fighter for that matter, at significantly greater ranges than radars, and are greatly affected by the weather.

Detecting range is relative, it all depends in power density, the power density of a jet like Su-35S in 1960 could be considered as a very power AWACS of 1970.

The IRST system of today is 3-4 times better in range than a 1960s IRST, the F-22 was designed in mind with a radar power density of 1980s-1990s, because those were the radar systems available at that time.
by 2020 i am sure the radars available will render stealth obsolete.

Now the vast majority of modern fighters have a very small frontal radar cross section.

Eurofighter is not stealthy lateraly or from the lower or aft part of its fuselage but frontally is really stealthy and the reason is a very pointed nose and a highly swept wing have a low RCS. it has also RAM coating so frontally is as stealthy as F-22.

add its small size and you get a small RCS.

On a head to head the main advantage of a stealth fighter is its ability to carry weapons internally but this is slightly offset by the fact a bigger area gives a bigger RCS, thus the larger frontal cross section of a F-22 or J-20 do not favoured them against the smaller Eurofighter with semi recessed Meteors.

For a Eurofighter the problem is it is more detectable from different angular directions, true that is where the 5th generation really have the advantage, however setting different radar assets that disadvantage can be overcome.

But Eurofighter only will be as good as its radar and IRST allows it and the AWACs　and ground radar stations able to feed it information

MiG-29 · Dec 2, 2011

TerraN_EmpirE said:
You'r Argument is flawed in the Fallowing areas. First you are assuming that the J20 is not detected before the Raptor. next the Catbird used the same systems as a F35 meaning other then a it's non stealth radar signature it was using the sensors of a Gen 5 platform sensors that will likely be worked into Raptors and Lightnings as well as assuming that the Stealth characteristics are fixed. As Time goes by however it likely that these two will change remember the coatings of the B2 skin are being updated and with two stealth fighters in production ( one early ) and a third under pre-development it's likely that new coating and techniques will be continued on a regular basis

I Agree the Typhoon and Rafal will likely remain underproduction and other 4.5's will continue there life cycles I never Said it was the end now Did I? Here in the US We are extending the life cycle of the F15c/d and E. the sensor suites of a Gen 5 can be worked into the gen 4 making it a gen 4.5 but the kicker is that despite this the gen 5 has the advantage it is up too the gen 4 and 4.5 too find her and kill her, but with a smaller RCS she will be harder too spot as well as (at least In the case of the Raptor) reduced IR signature ( the other job of those nozzles) but even if that fails she can still turn and burn just as well as any other fighter in other words. even if stealth is render mute she can still mix it up as a brawler on par if not still better then a gen4.5 because as a bonus of her stealth her internal weapons carry makes her sleeker by reducing drag on her frame allowing better speed and maneuverability.
I agreed With Mig about about a upgrade too the Typhoon, But I still side with a gen 5 although I still side with the J20 lagging in areas of maneuverability and Avionics. the t50 I know will be a dancer but I doubt her and avionics are game changes. F35 has other side of the coin she packs the brains and the sensors but lacks the moves and arms( although touted has having a heaver weapons load then the Raptor the fact often left out was Raptor carries more inside the frame then the F35. meaning well a lightning flying Air superiority stealthily will have 4 Air too air missiles and between 180 too 220 rounds 25mm a Raptor on the same mission will have 4 medium air too air missiles and two close in IR guided killers plus 480 rounds of 20mm.)
Typhoon might be able too mix it up with raptor and if the pilot is good she might stand a chance but if it came too a fight my money is on Raptor.

And so As the mouse trap becomes better the mouse too leads the curve.

The F-15 has no supercruise capability, Eurofighter does, adding thrust vectoring control nozzles to Eurofighter will add it lower RCS, lower drag and higher supercruise and range, same is Su-35S.

Eurofighter will get soon meteors and E-captor, Eurofighter has helmet mounted display and sight, F-22 lacks it, so giving better radar technology i bet the Eurofighter is a dangerous opponent

Skywatcher · Dec 2, 2011

MiG-29 said:
The only true advantage i see for the 5th generation is shaping, however power density plays the more important part, if power density increases stealth fighters become more detectable, IRST systems play another part, so if J-20 wants to detect the F-22 it will need radars and IRST systems able to do it, otherwise the J-20 and F-22 never will fight each other.

the same technologies will be applied and fitted to Eurofighter, so with newer more powerful engines with TVC nozzles it will be possible to Eurofighter to get close to a 5th generation fighter.

As Mirage driver put it, the best IRST, radar and AWACS will give the true advantage, of course fighting a T-50 will be harder Su-35S but having a better radar will mean T-50 will have less advantages.

So i will put it like this, if Eurofighter ios fitted with radars capable to detect Fifth generation fighters and IRST that can cue AAMs, then it is possible Eurofighter will be capable of downing a F-35, J-20 or a T-50

Thanks for dodging the point. How on earth is the Eurofighter going to fight against a fighter which flies faster and higher than it does (guess who has the advantage in BVR or WVR aerial combat when one combat has the high ground?)

Is Cassadian and Dassault going to magic away the laws of physics?

MiG-29 · Dec 2, 2011

Skywatcher said:
Thanks for dodging the point. How on earth is the Eurofighter going to fight against a fighter which flies faster and higher than it does (guess who has the advantage in BVR or WVR aerial combat when one combat has the high ground?)

Is Cassadian and Dassault going to magic away the laws of physics?

Eurofighter is said achieves Mach 1.3-4 in full supercruise,; F-22 mach 1.7, adding thrust vectoring to Eurofighter will increase that speed to perhaps Mach 1.5, Eurofighter can fly at Mach 2, the same speed F-22 does and a max cieling of 19km, so pretty much it has no disadvantage.
J-20 has DSI which are fixed intakes giving a speed of around mach 1.7-2 at max

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Technische Daten
Triebwerke 2 Mantelstromtriebwerke Eurojet EJ200
Länge: 15,96 m
Höhe: 5,28 m
Spannweite: 10,95 m
Höchstgeschwindigkeit 2.495 km/h in 10.975 m Höhe
Reichweite 1.390 km
Dienstgipfelhöhe 16.765 m
max. Flughöhe 19.812 m
Service ceiling 16.765 m 16 765 m
max Altitude 19.812 m

Skywatcher · Dec 3, 2011

MiG-29 said:
Eurofighter is said achieves Mach 1.3-4 in full supercruise,; F-22 mach 1.7, adding thrust vectoring to Eurofighter will increase that speed to perhaps Mach 1.5, Eurofighter can fly at Mach 2, the same speed F-22 does and a max cieling of 19km, so pretty much it has no disadvantage.
J-20 has DSI which are fixed intakes giving a speed of around mach 1.7-2 at max

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Technische Daten
Triebwerke 2 Mantelstromtriebwerke Eurojet EJ200
Länge: 15,96 m
Höhe: 5,28 m
Spannweite: 10,95 m
Höchstgeschwindigkeit 2.495 km/h in 10.975 m Höhe
Reichweite 1.390 km
Dienstgipfelhöhe 16.765 m
max. Flughöhe 19.812 m
Service ceiling 16.765 m 16 765 m
max Altitude 19.812 m

All right, then so Mach 1.5 to Mach 1.8 (your figure is wrong there), that's a difference of 20%. Now mathematics might be a little thing, but that is a pretty big difference.

And what's the service ceiling for the F-22A, genius (hint, it required a completely new onboard oxygen supply from previous American models)?

Of course, the J-20 would be limited to only Mach 2, if it was using only DSI.

Can Kill J-20 & T-50, Says Eurofighter

Miragedriver

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Skywatcher

Captain

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

plawolf

Lieutenant General

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

Skywatcher

Captain

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

Skywatcher

Captain