50 thousand tons for a 075 LHD?! They might as well go for the 076 LHAs or medium CVs that are UCAV-capable instead. Imagine if those planners want a 150-thousand ton supercarrier in the future if that trend keeps on going. Gosh...
055 Large Destroyer Thread II
- Thread starter Blitzo
- Start date
Lethe
Captain
From an AAW perspective, the rationale for a ship considerably larger than 055 would be to host a larger and more powerful radar. USN studies in the mid-late 2000s identified the need for a "SPY+30" (SPY-1D(V) + 30 dB) class radar to address the most challenging threat environments. The SPY-6 that is actually being fitted to Burke III is only "marginally adequate" at "SPY+15". Type 055's radar may well be larger and more powerful than SPY-6, but it is unlikely to match the notional requirement identified by USN some fifteen years ago. Even the Zumwalt hull/powerplant was only identified as being compatible with a "SPY+25" radar. Of course it should also be noted that PLAN arguably faces more challenging threats environment than USN and hence could reasonably seek even greater capabilities well in excess of what a Zumwalt-sized hull could provide. Hence, I think it is plausible that PLAN could seek a limited run large combatant hauling a very large radar around and providing that vision across the battlegroup via CEC.
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Slava-class is a strike cruiser of a bygone era...nothing more, nothing less. Basically replaceable by a modern heavy frigate.
Kirov class is a political testamento in peacetime, and a battlegroup core on top of that.
Basically, that ridiculously expensive Nakhimov modernization is - provided Kuznetsov will be actually properly repaired, - the single reason Russian Navy can still be expected to gather a single true high-tier CSG, capable of taking a fight on an equal level with US/PLAN-level ones. Weird CSG, but it will be a force to be reckoned with (at least on paper) - in large part due to how ridiculous the 1144M is.
No other second-tier navy (RN, MN, JMSDF, IN) can nor will be able to mimic something similar in the foreseeable future.
Entry-level requirement (survivable system of systems with integrated battlefield for all combatants) is just too high.
They know that, too, and build accordingly.
My main point is 055 is already playing the same role as Kirov. Very long range anti-air missile of same weight class, check. Very long range anti-ship missile that can reach carriers, check. There are other advanced warships in PLAN that is more advanced than Kirov but those are apple to orange comparison. 055 superseded Kirov's role while being 2 weight class below and that is remarkable. Imagine fitting a Ticonderoga's firepower into a frigate, that is the level of difference we are talking about. Remarkable even 40 years later. Yes Ticonderoga is about same age as Kirov.
They're not.
055...is basically an overgrown destroyer (or Ticos for the matter - they aren't real cruisers nor ever were), but, more crucially, it's a fulcrum node (capacity and capability multiplier) of a networked fleet of other LRSAM combatants.
Nakhimov(talking about Kirov which dates to the era of the original 051 class is essentially pointless) is essentially a one-ship replacement of a deeply networked fleet for a navy that can't afford to create one.
It's honestly almost impressively simplistic. 052D claims all the same boxes - isn't it an even more impressive example?
But you're looking for the wrong checkboxes in the first place.
First, Nakhimov is basically a replacement of Burke (or 055/052) grid, not of single ships. In part it does it relying on its sheer size (it's after all carrier-level tall, with a correspondingly high placement of sensors and datalinks).
Then, it has the largest airwing for non-carrier combatants - which is actually known to include AEW helicopter(s).
Second, it is resistant even in situations where there is no reliable 3rd party Shared situational awareness(SA)/targeting data environment (especially low-altitude coverage) in the first place, because of an unreasonable amount of self-defense firepower (CIWS, TDS).
Third, it's arguably the only ship in the world that can actually be expected to take hit(s) and fight (Moskva's impressive DC effort undermined that point, but let's talk about the ship itself for now). Again, to some degree mitigating mistakes and inherent unavailability of US/China level external SA to 2nd tier navies. It's big, armoured, and well-duplicated.
Fourth, it is unlimited in tactical positioning (nuclear propulsion).
And only then do we come to "very long range missile that can reach carriers". These are honestly a lesser part - not because her hypersonic/land attack cruise missile array isn't impressive per se, but because all Russian VLS frigates and SSGNs have the same thing, just in smaller numbers. Just a big part of the squadron salvo/strike, nothing more, nothing less.
The end result is that if you add a single 055 to a Russian frigate/carrier squadron (let us assume for our small mind experiment their comm links can talk to each other), you still get the same 2nd tier CSG which half a dozen other nations can do. It's painfully limited by radar horizon and the weakness of other units - which both need protection and don't add too much to 055s own life expectancy.
1144M impact for such a second-tier CSG is transformational, as it allows a second-tier group to fight well above its potential.
(to be fair - to 1st tier one it simply won't be able to add anywhere near enough oomph to justify its cost, limiting its practical value to its 160 main cells - here the 055 criteria works).
In PLAN terms - imagine a CSG made out of Liaoning, 2-3 upgraded 956s or 052Bs, but without most of the Chinese air and space ISR, data relay, and datacoms, as well as a directly worse carrier (same hull, worse shape, worse/outdated electronics, dated aircraft).
This is what you're working with.
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What prevents 055s from flying their own AEW helicopters for OTH targeting?
Hardly. From what we can gather from open source, official histories, and forum rumors, neither Type 055s (artillery/missile or DDG) were meant to be 1144 equivalents. The old 055 perhaps is closer in the sense that PLAN had no means of acquiring a carrier then and thus has to rely on 055 to be the crux of its ocean-going fleet.
Then still, the Red Navy has a very very different fighting doctrine and thus force structure. From what I understand, the Red Navy in the 70s and 80s essentially boils down to a tiered "assault" doctrine. Project 956 for example was designed to be at the forefront along with 1155 later on making up the "recon-assault group", and Project 1144 was to be the core of the "assault group" accompanied by 1164 and 1143.5 providing off-shore fighter cover; in addition, 1134 and 1143 make up the anti-submarine screen "search-strike group". This is why Soviet ships all have a heavy emphasis on the attack, even including the carriers (think heavy aircraft-carrying cruisers).
PLAN is entirely different, in the era of the old 055 there's not much to be said other than any reasonably capable large surface combatant would be some sort of 1144 equivalent. Yet the modern Type 055 DDG is designed first and foremost around fighting within, or at least close to aircraft carrier battlegroups. You can see this in how PLAN battlegroups, much like those of USN, rely on shore-based and carrier-based aircraft for ISR. The difference here is that PLAN's main strike capabilities lie in those long-range SSMs in 850mm ULVS cells and USN in carrier-based strike aircraft. But in both fighting doctrines, carriers are the core, and thus the ONLY capital ship. For the Red Navy, however, 1144 was the capital ship.
I hardly think PLAN would consider designing 055 to be that large as it would mean significantly higher unit cost (probably double the machinery) and extremely poor cost-effectiveness. I feel like I'm talking in a circle here but just to sum up, 055 is a "flagship" destroyer to be produced in greater numbers, while 1144 was probably the world's only non-carrier capital ship since the end of the battleship era. On a side note, we've known from official news articles in the past that PLAN spent a great deal of effort actually to lighten the vessel. And the close placement of the 4 main GTs probably speaks to the need to keep the package as tight as possible (on Burke 2 GTs are separated from the other 2 for better survivability).
For the Russians, the reason 23560 even exists or why Admiral Nakhimov needs to be refitted speaks more to their industry's inability to reliably supply their fleet with new platforms like the 22350 in large enough numbers, a problem least of PLAN's concern.
This is getting too far-fetched into the "斗兽棋" chess mindset imo... While I don't think 055's helo deck "mechanically" has any problem taking on a Z-18J or Ka-31, why tho? I hardly see the point of comparing 055 and 1144 in this fashion. PLAN can comfortably provide its battlegroups with ISR from both KJ-600 and even J-35, flying Ka-31s off destroyer helo decks is more of a contingency plan than anything. PLAN has not had to fly helo AEWs off DDG decks for more than a decade now...
Looks superfluous. There are massive questions about surface ship survivability. And I don't see slaving 200+ VLS cells to a single set of sensors is a good idea even for just area coverage reasons. Nuclear propulsion for cruisers is highly questionable in value too.
Well it's big and expensive, so could really act as sorta a floating fleet head quarters for blue water operation. If nuclear powered you can probably fit very powerful radars on it and corresponding directed energy weapons for AA. If operating in similar role to Kirov I can see it acting as a locus for fleet air defense with the best sensor suite you can possibly fit on it due to lack of energy concerns, vls is less of a concern since other smaller ships can easily fufill that role.
While definitely not cost effective or even what PLAN needs, an nuclear large cruiser absolutely bristling with AA would be amazing to behold.