055 Large Destroyer Thread II

[Mirabo]

As much as like I like to see such a large Chinese warship, at that point it is reaching WWII heavy cruiser levels in weight and there must be a reason no more heavy cruiser class warships were ordered after WWII. At some point other costs, constraints and limitations will begin to factor in and outweigh the cost benefits achieved from scaling capability with tonnage I believe. (i.e. vulnerability to saturation strikes from the air)

I think you might be overthinking this. Most heavy cruisers (WW2-era) were in the 10k to 14k-ton range. There was a pause in military shipbuilding overall in the late 40s and early 50s as the Allies retired, refitted, or scrapped most of their wartime fleets, but new heavy cruiser-sized ships were being built already in the late 50s (USS Long Beach at 15k tons). Some WW2 CAs (Baltimore-class) were also converted to launch guided missiles with a 14k to 17k-ton displacement.

The 60s saw a pause in large cruiser experiments and conversions, and no new cruisers were being built apart from several one-off designs. That era was characterised by 4k to 6k-ton small missile cruisers and destroyers. But the 8k-ton Ticos and 9k-ton Slavas were planned in the late 70s and entered service in the early 80s. These designs have similar displacement to interwar CAs like the Pensacola and Town-class cruisers, and more than smaller CAs like the Furutakas and Aobas. And they just keep getting bigger, with the Kirovs (also 70s) and more recently the Zumwalts.

The 055s being only 10k tons (personal estimate) is perfectly in line with current trends of cruiser evolution. Navies have operated heavy cruiser-sized warships since the 1980s. However, jumping the 055 to 18k tons full load (15k standard?) is a huge leap, you're talking about a 50% increase in displacement on the same hull. What would that extra volume even be used for? An extra gun and peripheral VLS like the Zumwalts? Larger deckhouse for more powerful radars? More hangar capacity?

Also, remember that the PLAN has a tendency to condense designs. I recall that the 055 actually started out as a 18k to 20k-ton project. Thanks to technological advances, and brilliant Chinese naval engineering, the designers delivered the required capabilities on a 10k-ton hull. If the PLAN ever gets a 15k-ton cruiser, it will be because they asked for 25k tons worth of capability. And I doubt that any navy in the world would need a surface combatant like that for the foreseeable future.

All figures are in standard displacement.

 

[Blitzo]

Also, remember that the PLAN has a tendency to condense designs. I recall that the 055 actually started out as a 18k to 20k-ton project. Thanks to technological advances, and brilliant Chinese naval engineering, the designers delivered the required capabilities on a 10k-ton hull. If the PLAN ever gets a 15k-ton cruiser, it will be because they asked for 25k tons worth of capability. And I doubt that any navy in the world would need a surface combatant like that for the foreseeable future.

I'm not sure if this is the best way to view it.

Advancements in technology naturally enables greater miniaturization and condensing the size of systems, allowing one to put more capabilities into a smaller package.

055 as we see it today, as a 12-13k ton surface combatant, has capabilities which are "normal and expected" when viewed in the scope of contemporary technological advancements and capabilities.

That is to say, its capabilities today are very much what you'd expect out of a 12-13k ton ship today.

In the past, when their technological capabilities were far more inferior, they would need a much larger 20k ton hull, but that's a reflection of past technological backwardness at the time.
But today's 055 as a 12-13k ton ship, is very much "just" a 12k-13k ton ship expected of today's technological capabilities.


If the PLAN in future needs a 15k ton surface combatant, it's because they would need a 15k ton surface combatant of the technological capabilities of that time period.

 

[TK3600]

Just to chip in a little.

Here's what I can find regarding the estimated unit costs of major PLAN surface combatants from what I can scout of:
1. 054A-class frigate: ~1.5 billion RMB, equivalent to ~220 million USD
2. 052D-class destroyer: ~3.5 billion RMB, equivalent to ~520 million USD
3. 055-class destroyer: ~6.5 billion RMB, equivalent to ~960 billion USD
(1 USD = 6.78 RMB, 29 January 2023 exchange rate)

For comparison:
1. Constellation-class frigate: ~1.1 billion USD
2. Arleigh Burke-class destroyer: ~1.78 billion USD
3. DDG(X)-class destroyer: ~3.4 billion USD based on latest estimates by the DoD

Notice that the cost difference between the 052D/DL and 055 is around 3 billion RMB, or around 440 million USD.

Combined with the difference between the full displacement and capabilities of the 052D/DL and 055, I believe there are still ample spaces for the tier of medium destroyers like the 052D to expand into, well before role-overlapping and increasing costs would come to justify the total abandonment of the "medium destroyers" in favor of pursuing large destroyers only i.e. 055.

In fact, I think China should pursue a direct counterpart to the Flight 3 Arleigh Burkes as the successor class to the 052D/DLs at around 9000-9500 tons of full displacement, considering the recent guesstimation of the 054B FFGs' full displacement which put them well within the reach of the 052D/DLs.

Following this addition, there would still be around 3000 tons of displacement difference between the "medium destroyers" and the 055 large destroyers. If anything, a hypothetical/expected successor class to the 055s can have an extra 2000 tons of full displacement added, resulting in 15000 tons of full displacement for them. This basically makes the successor-to-055 class into true, proper cruisers (CGs) - And they would still be more powerful and more capable than the Zumwalts.

1 trillion dollar for 055? I better get a star destroyer at this price.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

1 trillion dollar for 055? I better get a star destroyer at this price.

Oops, spelling mistake missed. It was supposed to be ~960 million USD, not ~960 billion USD. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

[ashnole]

I expect the follow-on class of the 055-class to be something along the lines of the CG-21 the USN envisioned before that program got cancelled. Now THAT would be a true blue blood Cruiser.

 

[Biscuits]

I expect the follow-on class of the 055-class to be something along the lines of the CG-21 the USN envisioned before that program got cancelled. Now THAT would be a true blue blood Cruiser.

I don't think China would deploy cruisers because there's not much point in putting too many vls in 1 basket when you're expecting to fight outnumbered. Instead, you want a large amount of networked mid sized vessels.

055 serve as direct counterpart to Burkes, and they have their job because they're a qualitative overmatch in that role. But an even larger ship with 200 vls would not justify itself over getting 2 055s.

 

[ashnole]

I don't think China would deploy cruisers because there's not much point in putting too many vls in 1 basket when you're expecting to fight outnumbered. Instead, you want a large amount of networked mid sized vessels.

055 serve as direct counterpart to Burkes, and they have their job because they're a qualitative overmatch in that role. But an even larger ship with 200 vls would not justify itself over getting 2 055s.

Size & displacement-wise I expect the 055 successor to be along the lines of the cancelled USN CG-21 Cruiser but not necessarily VLS capacity-wise. PLAN VLS are too large already and, if I recall correctly, 36 PLAN VLS cells are equivalent of 64 USN MK41 VLS cells dimension-wise. So if, for CG-21, the USN was envisioning 200 VLS cells, that would translate to 108-112 PLAN VLS cells size-wise which the 055 already has. I think 112-128 large cells are the perfect number for a PLAN Cruiser. You can comfortably defend as well as strike (if mission allows) with such a number.

 

[Lethe]

As much as like I like to see such a large Chinese warship, at that point it is reaching WWII heavy cruiser levels in weight and there must be a reason no more heavy cruiser class warships were ordered after WWII. At some point other costs, constraints and limitations will begin to factor in and outweigh the cost benefits achieved from scaling capability with tonnage I believe. (i.e. vulnerability to saturation strikes from the air)

I'm still holding out for a limited-run (say ~6 ships), nuclear-powered, Sino-Kirov. But realistically one must ask what such a vessel could do that could not be better accomplished by two 055s. Beyond the symbolic power of such a vessel, I think the most compelling case is shore bombardment and land attack roles, where the additional volume could be very useful to support e.g. multiple railguns, large volume hypersonic weapons, etc.

(ASW Aviation is another obvious contender for scaling significantly larger than 055 and I do think there's a case for PLAN to invest in a Hyuga-type vessel, but that is a very different proposition.)

 

[drowingfish]

I'm still holding out for a limited-run (say ~6 ships), nuclear-powered, Sino-Kirov. But realistically one must ask what such a vessel could do that could not be better accomplished by two 055s. Beyond the symbolic power of such a vessel, I think the most compelling case is shore bombardment and land attack roles, where the additional volume could be very useful to support e.g. multiple railguns, large volume hypersonic weapons, etc.

(ASW Aviation is another obvious contender for scaling significantly larger than 055 and I do think there's a case for PLAN to invest in a Hyuga-type vessel, but that is a very different proposition.)

it seems that chinese decision makers are more focused now on a fight over the pacific with the US. in the end, if they can keep the US out of the fight, then shore bombardment can easily be done by 054/056/052/sov and all their aerial assets. if they cant keep the US out, then no amount of large vessels would enable them to achieve anything. so logically it makes no sense to commit large hulls to shore bombardment.

 

[Lethe]

it seems that chinese decision makers are more focused now on a fight over the pacific with the US. in the end, if they can keep the US out of the fight, then shore bombardment can easily be done by 054/056/052/sov and all their aerial assets. if they cant keep the US out, then no amount of large vessels would enable them to achieve anything. so logically it makes no sense to commit large hulls to shore bombardment.

It's a fantasy, but like any good fantasy it should be somewhat grounded in reality. Hence the question, how would one make such a ship work? I do hope and, to a certain extent, assume, that as PLAN continues to mature and fill the bathtub we see more niche and unique capabilities emerge. Type 076, for example, is interesting because it seems to lack a clear western analogue. Conversely, while platforms like Z-20 and KJ-600 are undoubtedly very important, they are also uninteresting.

This stirred some memories and I am gratified to discover that my 2013 thread

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

is still accessible on what is now an almost defunct forum.