PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

5unrise

Junior Member
Registered Member
I do not believe shooting down Pelosi's plane will be advantageous for China at all, although I also don't think the consequences will be all that terrible either. It will be one big step in the continuing deterioration of relations between China and the West, although not a game changer. What would happen is an esclation of public anger against China in the US and other Western countries, particularly the Anglo-sphere. Now, I know China is already viewed very negatively in the Anglo-sphere, but the extent that people actually give enough damn to do something about China is pretty modest. The West is experiencing severe economic problems of its own. Shooting down Pelosi's plane will increase the publics' willingness to increase military spending, and trade retaliation against China, despite the severe inflation and economic difficulties. Given the current environment in Western countries of elevated energy prices, high inflation, rising mortgage interest rates and falling real incomes, the vast majority of people would not care about China enough to want a much bigger military budget. Why would you want to change that? It is simply a matter of: why, when there is not much to be gained?

I am not saying China ought to put excessive weight on Western public opinion, which in any case is already negative. But Western perceptions of China should be sacrificed only when the gains are worth it. Shooting down Pelosi's plane just to make a point is not. Unifying Taiwan may very well be, if China feels it has the military certainty to pull this off. Because my view is that Chinese foreign policy is based on sound realpolitik and pragmatism, I believe China will not shoot down Pelosi's plane.

However, the same rationality cannot be said of the US. US foreign policy is partly pragmatic, but partly emotional and ideological. US politicians flaunt the role of values in diplomatic engagements. This reflects that politicians are incentivised to please voters, and also because voters are not incentivised to make well-informed decisions. According to mainstream Public Economics, individual voters are not incentivised to learn enough to make an informed vote, and this is because individual votes do not matter in determining the electoral outcome. There is virutally no chance of you personally casting the decisive vote, so why bother learning enough to make informed choices? So instead, when people cast their vote, they rely on emotions and mental heuristics (i.e. values). Politicians are incentivised to pander to these emotions to stay in power, especially in foreign policy, where rational players like the PRC will often have to make emotionally-unrewarding choices. This is why I think US foreign policy is inherently irrational, and this is dangerous for how they handle the Taiwan situation.

I do think China has escalation dominance insofar as the Taiwan issue is concerned. The Pentagon recognises it cannot prevail in a military confrontation in China's backyard. China does not have overall escalation dominance, given the economic leverage held by the West, but I actually think China is not too severely disadvantaged. The West has burned all bridges with Russia, who has all the cards in terms of natural resources. China holds an implicit economic threat over Western-aligned countries like Japan and South Korea. So, the threshold for China taking military action relative to perceived threat is probably quite low, and certainly much lower than it is viewed by professional Western diplomats (let alone by Western politicians catering to irrational voters).

This is where I see the danger for Taiwan. The West - especially the US - is fundamentally an irrational emotional moron when it comes to foreign policy. They do not know when to back down, and cannot back down. If Pelosi makes her visit, there would be a high likelihood that Beijing will consider it worthwhile to attack Taiwan and forcibly unify the country as soon as it has military certainty. There is a lot of benefit in holding out for a peaceful unification, but regular visits by senior US politicians could well convince Beijing that it is not worth pursing that anymore.
 

Shaolian

Junior Member
Registered Member
After reading all that has been discussed, the few things we could agree on is:

1) The longer China can defer any military conflict with the US, the better it is for China.

2) The earlier the US can force a military conflict with China, the better it is for the US.

What we do not agree on is whether China should respond with military force to the US provocation this time.

But if going by our concensus, why in the world would the US give China the luxury of preparing itself "for just a few more years"? Why not forcing a military confrontation now? Why would the US, knowing that its window of opportunity to put China down for good is closing down by the months, would just let it pass?

Not saying that China should absolutely react militarily now, but I don't think there is anything anyone can do if America decides that, that's it, let's do it now.
 

9dashline

Senior Member
Registered Member
I do not believe shooting down Pelosi's plane will be advantageous for China at all, although I also don't think the consequences will be all that terrible either. It will be one big step in the continuing deterioration of relations between China and the West, although not a game changer. What would happen is an esclation of public anger against China in the US and other Western countries, particularly the Anglo-sphere. Now, I know China is already viewed very negatively in the Anglo-sphere, but the extent that people actually give enough damn to do something about China is pretty modest. The West is experiencing severe economic problems of its own. Shooting down Pelosi's plane will increase the publics' willingness to increase military spending, and trade retaliation against China, despite the severe inflation and economic difficulties. Given the current environment in Western countries of elevated energy prices, high inflation, rising mortgage interest rates and falling real incomes, the vast majority of people would not care about China enough to want a much bigger military budget. Why would you want to change that? It is simply a matter of: why, when there is not much to be gained?

I am not saying China ought to put excessive weight on Western public opinion, which in any case is already negative. But Western perceptions of China should be sacrificed only when the gains are worth it. Shooting down Pelosi's plane just to make a point is not. Unifying Taiwan may very well be, if China feels it has the military certainty to pull this off. Because my view is that Chinese foreign policy is based on sound realpolitik and pragmatism, I believe China will not shoot down Pelosi's plane.

However, the same rationality cannot be said of the US. US foreign policy is partly pragmatic, but partly emotional and ideological. US politicians flaunt the role of values in diplomatic engagements. This reflects that politicians are incentivised to please voters, and also because voters are not incentivised to make well-informed decisions. According to mainstream Public Economics, individual voters are not incentivised to learn enough to make an informed vote, and this is because individual votes do not matter in determining the electoral outcome. There is virutally no chance of you personally casting the decisive vote, so why bother learning enough to make informed choices? So instead, when people cast their vote, they rely on emotions and mental heuristics (i.e. values). Politicians are incentivised to pander to these emotions to stay in power, especially in foreign policy, where rational players like the PRC will often have to make emotionally-unrewarding choices. This is why I think US foreign policy is inherently irrational, and this is dangerous for how they handle the Taiwan situation.

I do think China has escalation dominance insofar as the Taiwan issue is concerned. The Pentagon recognises it cannot prevail in a military confrontation in China's backyard. China does not have overall escalation dominance, given the economic leverage held by the West, but I actually think China is not too severely disadvantaged. The West has burned all bridges with Russia, who has all the cards in terms of natural resources. China holds an implicit economic threat over Western-aligned countries like Japan and South Korea. So, the threshold for China taking military action relative to perceived threat is probably quite low, and certainly much lower than it is viewed by professional Western diplomats (let alone by Western politicians catering to irrational voters).

This is where I see the danger for Taiwan. The West - especially the US - is fundamentally an irrational emotional moron when it comes to foreign policy. They do not know when to back down, and cannot back down. If Pelosi makes her visit, there would be a high likelihood that Beijing will consider it worthwhile to attack Taiwan and forcibly unify the country as soon as it has military certainty. There is a lot of benefit in holding out for a peaceful unification, but regular visits by senior US politicians could well convince Beijing that it is not worth pursing that anymore.

Great type up.... I will add and do concur:

1) if Pelosi goes through with this visit and she will, China will reunify Tiawan by force

2) the US likely knows this, so again because "time is on China's side", the US is not going to wait until China has built 6 aircraft carriers and matured a domestic EUV <5nm semiconductor fab process etc etc and will decide to escalate beyond just the issue of TW and into a full scale war with China in August next month, possibly all the way up to MAD

America tried the low hanging fruit first, trade war failed, covid failed , CIA/NED HK failed, tech war failing badly, so what is left? Only military and even with military China is catching up too quickly so the US has ran out of time and ran out of luck and this is the only thing it has left and its use it now or lose it forever and it knows its empire is about to implode hypernova style so this is it all cards on the table betting it all in.
 

delta115

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is US playbook for many years, China shouldn't play along with their game. Pelosi visit is the stunt to distract their citizen from their economic incompetant and moneypit in Ukraine. Sure it would look bad for China if Pelosi success, war hawk and those idiot in US would celebrate thier "victory" for 2-3 weeks top then going back to thier usual business of infighting. Biden administration just wanted to look tough on China for thier mid-term because they will have to soften some sanction on Russia. Yes, they will win. but only for short term.

But if China shootdown Pelosi plane or strike on CSG, US will use this for international rallying cry and gain support for even more act of agression against China. Heavy sanction can be freely use against China to weaken their economic. This will be victory in long term for US because thier real goal is never about destroy China but to subjugate and stall their military and economic growth.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Great type up.... I will add and do concur:

1) if Pelosi goes through with this visit and she will, China will reunify Tiawan by force

2) the US likely knows this, so again because "time is on China's side", the US is not going to wait until China has built 6 aircraft carriers and matured a domestic EUV <5nm semiconductor fab process etc etc and will decide to escalate beyond just the issue of TW and into a full scale war with China in August next month, possibly all the way up to MAD

America tried the low hanging fruit first, trade war failed, covid failed , CIA/NED HK failed, tech war failing badly, so what is left? Only military and even with military China is catching up too quickly so the US has ran out of time and ran out of luck and this is the only thing it has left and its use it now or lose it forever and it knows its empire is about to implode hypernova style so this is it all cards on the table betting it all in.
I for one hope that hostilities do not break out.
 

zhangjim

Junior Member
Registered Member
There are two fundamental questions that people on opposing sides of this discussion seem to be on the opposite sides of:
1. At present, between the US military and the PLA, which side holds escalation dominance in context of the geopolitical priorities of each side vis-a-vis Taiwan?
2. If China does use lethal military force in anger, would the potential variety of outcomes of such a course of action be more beneficial or more damaging to China's long term geopolitical interests versus if China did not use lethal force in anger? (note -- "not using lethal force in anger" does not equate with "not carrying out a significant display of military force")?
I recognize the frustration of being *almost* but not quite ready pay unto the west what they deserve, for both the people for China and the members here rootin' for Putin, but things are moving. Bad guys sometimes win the battle. The war goes on.
There is no doubt that the United States has the ability to further escalate the situation.Avoiding conflict for surviving time has changed the inherent thinking of a generation, which Americans know best, so they still have a lot of time to humiliate the Chinese.
I will always remember that unpleasant joke:China's final warning.
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Everyone knows that these warnings are useless,this would create a serious misunderstanding: that make the Americans believe that they can spit more saliva on the faces of Chinese.It was only in 2016 that this inherent impression changed slightly, but it still could not reverse the public perception.
This is a bitter fact: no one will take CPC's warning seriously.This view may be overturned in the future, but for now, diplomatic warnings are still useless.In the past, those US military transport planes and arms carriers carrying politicians have not been intercepted, and they have reason to believe that this time they will not.

If Pelosi can land safely on the ground of Taiwan, more politicians can win votes by humiliating China at will, which will also encourage Tsai ing Wen to become more stubborn.So far, Taiwan will only consider the views of the United States. They would rather have their agricultural products unsalable and rotten than ease their relations with the mainland.

Second, I think letting people realize that "God will bleed" will be the end of the American Empire.The United States can only rely on the huge and bloated military assets it has accumulated and the invincible myth that has been continuously strengthened through propaganda.

1) The longer China can defer any military conflict with the US, the better it is for China.
It used to be said that "solve the Taiwan issue in 2020", but now it is 2022, and then the time has been postponed to 2025, 2027, or even 203X,2049. People are tired of these meaningless slogans and assumptions.
It's not so easy to be Caesar.I hope he can take some action, otherwise he is only worthy to be Yuan Shikai. I don't believe that he doesn't care at all about people's doubts about him on this key issue.
It is difficult to persuade the public to continue to buy these shameless separatists with interests to buy time.Due to the historical lessons of the whole 19th century, any concession will be regarded as a traitor,the political metaphor that compares CPC to the Qing Dynasty or Song dynasty is still popular among the people.

Can the Chinese leadership really care nothing about the views of the people?Many people suspect that the leadership is afraid of Americans confiscating their property in Swiss banks.We hope to make some actions that can satisfy the public next Friday, otherwise we have to hope for a more determined leadership in the future.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
There is no doubt that the United States has the ability to further escalate the situation.Avoiding conflict for surviving time has changed the inherent thinking of a generation, which Americans know best, so they still have a lot of time to humiliate the Chinese.
I will always remember that unpleasant joke:China's final warning.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Everyone knows that these warnings are useless,this would create a serious misunderstanding: that make the Americans believe that they can spit more saliva on the faces of Chinese.It was only in 2016 that this inherent impression changed slightly, but it still could not reverse the public perception.
This is a bitter fact: no one will take CPC's warning seriously.This view may be overturned in the future, but for now, diplomatic warnings are still useless.In the past, those US military transport planes and arms carriers carrying politicians have not been intercepted, and they have reason to believe that this time they will not.

If Pelosi can land safely on the ground of Taiwan, more politicians can win votes by humiliating China at will, which will also encourage Tsai ing Wen to become more stubborn.So far, Taiwan will only consider the views of the United States. They would rather have their agricultural products unsalable and rotten than ease their relations with the mainland.

I think you have misinterpreted Chinese statements and warnings as threats and promises rather than deterrents to buy time unless a red line is absolutely definitively crossed.
The current US policy clearly is one that wants to salami slice closer to the red line, but that doesn't mean it crosses China's red line that results in a need for use of lethal military force.


Second, I think letting people realize that "God will bleed" will be the end of the American Empire.The United States can only rely on the huge and bloated military assets it has accumulated and the invincible myth that has been continuously strengthened through propaganda.

Such a strategy would only work if you believed that China held escalation dominance over the US (and thus superiority in military capability and ability to escalate in all domains, including laterally).

I'm not sure why you would endorse such a belief if you think that "there is no doubt that the United States has the ability to further escalate the situation".
 

zhangjim

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think you have misinterpreted Chinese statements and warnings as threats and promises rather than deterrents to buy time unless a red line is absolutely definitively crossed.
The current US policy clearly is one that wants to salami slice closer to the red line, but that doesn't mean it crosses China's red line that results in a need for use of lethal military force.

Such a strategy would only work if you believed that China held escalation dominance over the US (and thus superiority in military capability and ability to escalate in all domains, including laterally).

I'm not sure why you would endorse such a belief if you think that "there is no doubt that the United States has the ability to further escalate the situation".
I have to quote those widely circulated words: before the army really landed, I didn't even look (上岸之前,看都不看).
Unless they keep my promise, I will not trust the current regime unconditionally.

Americans have no absolute advantage, but they are very clear about the intention of Chinese leaders to avoid conflict. This seemingly tense confrontation may not be so dangerous for Americans. In any case, it will only damage the political prestige of the Communist Party of China.

This method is a joke when public opinion constantly condemns but does not take action.
Let me make it clearer, the official media has been stirring up our emotions time and time again, but where is the action? I am sick and tired of this emotional stirring.I have been numb to propaganda, and my patriotism has been abused without restraint for more than a decade.
Then I can only conclude that the leadership has no courage to take action. They just incite the people from time to time to show that they pretend to be committed to reunification.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I have to quote those widely circulated words: before the army really landed, I didn't even look (上岸之前,看都不看).
Unless they keep my promise, I will not trust the current regime unconditionally.

What promise did the Chinese government make, and when did they make it?

Are you sure that you have not simply misinterpreted what the Chinese government had said?


Americans have no absolute advantage, but they are very clear about the intention of Chinese leaders to avoid conflict. This seemingly tense confrontation may not be so dangerous for Americans. In any case, it will only damage the political prestige of the Communist Party of China.

This method is a joke when public opinion constantly condemns but does not take action.
Let me make it clearer, the official media has been stirring up our emotions time and time again, but where is the action? I am sick and tired of this emotional stirring.I have been numb to propaganda, and my patriotism has been abused without restraint for more than a decade.
Then I can only conclude that the leadership has no courage to take action. They just incite the people from time to time to show that they pretend to be committed to reunification.

The Chinese government and diplomats and state media that broadcast their words have not been "stirring up emotions" so much as responding to the increasing bellicosity of the US and other nations trying to salami slice towards Taiwan's political status.

If you believe that the Chinese government "needs" to act with lethal military force if Pelosi lands in Taiwan, that is because you are unable to read context and interpret geopolitical signaling.
If a lack of use of lethal military force causes you to believe that your "patriotism has been abused without restraint" then I'm sorry, perhaps it is your own ability to analyze, assess and judge the circumstances that needs to be revised.
Indeed, perhaps it is your patriotism that needs to be revised then.

I've been seeing the same signals for going on the last decade, and what I've seen from the Chinese government is the use of restrained diplomatic warnings seeking to emphasize the red lines that the Chinese government has on Taiwan, as the US has gradually tried to move closer and closer towards it. However, the Chinese government is relatively consistent -- the use of lethal military force in anger comes if a red line has been crossed. The US and other nations can try to flirt close to the red line, and that may see a military response, but that doesn't mean a use of lethal military force in anger (i.e.: war).
That is because the Chinese government knows that it would prefer not to fight a war at present or in the immediate future, because it believes that the balance of power would be more in its into the future.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Until China builds nuclear parity with the US and wires everything up in a LoW system, this is not a credible threat.

There's a trivially easy attritional strategy against any country that's in range of your guns and you out of range of theirs.

Who combined have naval tonnage of about bupkis.

Who said anything about feeding Europe? Europe can go to Hell, Japan can go to Hell, Korea can go to Hell. Everybody can go to Hell, the only thing that matters is bringing China down.

If you think the volume of fire the US can land on China is small, the number China can land on the US is zero.

Read what I said above about the guy bragging that he'll get jacked when he goes to prison.
So your US strategy is to just go full nazi Germany and war declare on pretty much everything, let Europe starve, let Japan and SK be meatshields that eventually get occupied.

Surely, there is no way such a strategy would backfire by pissing off trillions of people. It wouldn't create a new Allies for sure. Surely, it wouldn't break the US economy which can't even work properly to feed its population during peacetime.

Do you know China's geography? Cities like Chengdu lie about 2000 km inland. If China's defenses extends 1000 kms out from the mainland, the volume of attacks you can land even using the bombers with highest survivability firing the most expensive munitions with 1500km range, is none. Unless you wanna trade a lot of pilots by sending huge formations deep inside China and hoping 1 or 2 can make it through. B2s and pilots don't grow on trees.

Realistically, some attacks especially on Taiwan Island will be possible, but as we've seen in Ukraine, sporadic attacks using expensive munitions won't knock out even 1 city. And just Taiwan itself has how many major cities? Not to mention, Mainland China can survive just fine even if most of Taiwan is knocked out.

And in order to launch attacks, US needs bases in Asia. Whichever country allows US to use them to attack will eventually get invaded.

You have bought into the false myth of American invincibility spread by their state media. The world is not a playground which US can freely mold. They can't even get themselves out of recession, nor get their life expectancy higher than China, even when every other elderly Chinese today were chain smoking as kids and grew up during total war. They can't even expel the taliban from Afghanistan. They can't even fix their own corruption. You're like those ppl thinking the Soviet Union in 1988 could use its martial might to run over all of Europe.

In reality, US won't even be able to replenish missiles on large scale due to semiconductor shortage.

Instead of making shallow analogies that have no relevance to the topic, let's just look at only the topic of war. War is a competition between the manpower and industry of both nations. Do you deny that fact? Every so often, a country like Germany with its cult of the offensive in ww1, Japan with its decisive battle doctrine, or more recently, Russia with its battle of Kiev, comes to believe their weapons are so superior and advanced that they can bypass this basic rule. They have invariably be proven very wrong every time. What makes this any different?
 
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