Ladakh Flash Point

[twineedle]

If you were referring to some posts just prior, then I have to disagree.

They want to set a narrative that
1. India achieved all its "strategic goals".
Not explaining what these goals were prior to Ladakh and what makes them strategic and how they achieved it.

2.China had to "retreat".

As if India didn't and buffer zones were created in India's perception and possession of LAC.

3. China initiated the conflict.

Not discounting it but media evidences point to Indian aggression at Galwan rather than China that initiated it. No counter evidences.

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Agreeing to disagree means allowing some people to repeat what they want to, without obstruction. That would set the narrative that Chinese has one set of fact and India has another and both are right.

Leave it. I wouldn't bother. Chinese soldiers then ought to be taken as reliable and infallible sources too.

The claim I've some issue with is how all this is advantageous to India or according to its strategic goals - a very bad cope if there was one.

So are you denying that

China retreated from finger 4-8, and can no longer patrol or build infrastructure there
China dismantled all infrastructure it had built there last year, inclueding climate controlled buildings, jetties, boat repair stations, etc.
China failed to secure its 1959 claim line(which goes up to finger 2 and the Galwan mouth).
India never had any permanent or temporary structures past finger 4 and at best only sparingly made it past finger 4 due to the topographical challenges stated by Col Dinny. Whereas China actually occupied and was regularly patrolling the area.
India still has camps in Galwan and conducts regular patrol operations(weather permitting, obviously)
India has completed strategic infrastructure projects China objected to.
The Depsang Y Junction has always been on China's side of the LAC.

I have already presented evidence as to how India acheived strategic objectives, which you have failed to refute. So what did China gain? It had to desroy infrastructure in Pangong, can no longer patrol up to its claim line, lost dominating postitions on the f4 ridge line, and failed to evinct Indian soldiers from Galwan or stop bridge work there.

And no, I am not arguing this is a complete victory for India. But this is still a favorable outcome for India. ANd your claims of Chinese victory, 1000 sq km captured, have been proven wrong multiple times.

 

[twineedle]

Neutral?
Correction - Dated, Unreliable and lacking substance.

A neutral source needs to be proved neutral. But neutrality takes a backseat when irrefutable cross checked information is put. A member of Quad isn't neutral. We aren't talking about Guatemala here.

If your sources/evidences crumble easily when countered with some Indian sources itself, then it's time you rethink the quality of your sources.

I don't care for the internal politics of your country. China doesn't.

So whhat sources are neutral? Because you sure haven't provided Indian sources either.

Please make up your mind. Either Indian media is terrible, or it is reliable. Because I can provide you many Indian articles showing how the Ladakh Standoff was a complete victory for india(which I am not claiming)

keep in mind you are the only one providing Indian media as evidence here.

 

[twineedle]

I fully understand your sentiments.
but you are not going to win our Indian friends over to your side, no matter how hard you try.
if they can ignore hard evidence including a real video, and stick to their narrative, then all sensible arguments and debate are not going to change them.
let them enjoy their delusional win, we would just enjoy the fruits of success of the newly established LAC to China's favour.

There is no new LAC. The LAC agreed to is the same de facto LAC there has been since 1962, that both sides agreed to maintain peace adn tranquility along in 1993. Just look a t google maps, they show the actual LAC, not some Chinese claims. If China had reached its claims, it would have reached finger 2 and secured the entire Galwan valley, where the Galwan meets the Shyok, as well as 20 km past the lac in Depsang. Yet China has failed to achieve these objectives. And India still claims finger 8 as its perception. So where is this new LAC? Please show me, and compare it to the previous lac on a map if you can. Then again, you can't becasue teh LAC is the exact same it has been since 1962, and status quo ante has been restored. And how does the LAC benefit China? OBviously it does not, because if it did, China wouldn't have tried to change it last year.

 

[twineedle]

India only backed off from F8 to F3 and associated points in the north west in exchange for PLA moving back from LAND THAT INDIA USED TO ACCESS AND NO LONGER DO, AFTER PLA OCCUPIED IT FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR AND SUCCESSFULLY REPELLED ALL INDIAN ATTEMPTS TO REVERSE.

Good "wYn!" India.

How can India back of from land it never occupied? By now it should be clear India never had any permanent or temporary structure past f4 since 1962. Only China had occupied and patrolled that area.

 

[twineedle]

And since members here care so much about educating lurkers with facts and evidence about the standoff, I will present some once again.

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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276061645731594240

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282727207819808773

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281829922168659969

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280492419407122433

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292100480315740160

 

[PiSigma]

And since members here care so much about educating lurkers with facts and evidence about the standoff, I will present some once again.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1276061645731594240

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1282727207819808773

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281829922168659969

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280492419407122433

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1292100480315740160

@siegecrossbow @Deino could you not reply altogether instead of having 8 posts in a row. This is just adds a ton of posts without real content.

I find pretty much every post from twneedle is a repeat of a previous post that has been already debunked several times. Now it's just getting desperate.

 

[twineedle]

@siegecrossbow @Deino could you not reply altogether instead of having 8 posts in a row. This is just adds a ton of posts without real content.

I find pretty much every post from twneedle is a repeat of a previous post that has been already debunked several times. Now it's just getting desperate.

I do think multiple replies by the same poster should be merged together. Some other forums have that feature.
But until someone provides evidence countering my arguements and evidence, I will continue to post so that people interested in the subject can see the ground reality. So far nobody has debunked the satellite imagery I posted.

 

[PiSigma]

I do think multiple replies by the same poster should be merged together. Some other forums have that feature.
But until someone provides evidence countering my arguements and evidence, I will continue to post so that people interested in the subject can see the ground reality. So far nobody has debunked the satellite imagery I posted.

It's been debunked many times, you just refuse to read it or believe it. That's your opinion, just don't want to see the same stuff being posted again and again. It's literally 50 pages of the same thing, you guys need to stop.

 

[Abominable]

It's been debunked many times, you just refuse to read it or believe it. That's your opinion, just don't want to see the same stuff being posted again and again. It's literally 50 pages of the same thing, you guys need to stop.

They're doing the multiple posts on purpose, to flood discussion with their own view.

 

[Mohsin77]

Agreeing to disagree means allowing some people to repeat what they want to, without obstruction.

Yes you're right, it's a waste of time trying to convince the blind.

Logic will get you no where with people like twineedle. Read any Indian community discussion, twitter feed, comments on youtube. They are all 100% convinced that both the battle and the peace agreement were a big victory of India.

You guys realize that Indians still think they 'won' the Balakot episode right? That was exactly 2 years ago. And they're still not convinced they lost anything, when literally the entire planet laughed at their claims, even their own allies.

If you wanna fix this problem, it's not gonna happen through rational debate. This is gonna require a war, which is what China is preparing for now, along with Pakistan. The CPC understood this on August 5th, 2019, when India revoked Article 370, as Sawhney has said repeatedly, trying to warn India's leadership which is not paying attention.

This can't be a long war. It will need to be a 48-72 hour high intensity conflict. The two key objectives are Kashmir and crippling India's military. Both objectives will need to be met in this time window, before the international outcry over 3 nuclear countries going to war becomes overwhelming and a ceasefire is called. It's not a trivial matter. Even when an enemy is as incompetent as India, it takes a lot of planning and preparation to pull off an offensive against an entrenched enemy, especially one as big as India. It will take time to prepare for this. Years, maybe even a decade, before all the pieces are in place. So don't get frustrated, just wait. Grab some popcorn.