Ladakh Flash Point

[Gatekeeper]

I don't see any point in continuing the debate of who has won and who has lost.
might as well agree to disagree and move on, unless and until fresh evidences come up that give merits to further discussion and debate.
I would just say that a new status quo and LAC has been established, to the "satisfaction" of both sides. Now hopefully both countries will move on from there and live happily ever after with each other as peaceful neighbours.
but if the Indian side is not happy and itching for round 2, then so be it, BRING IT ON. But this time around, there won't be any ambush of PLA front line negotiation party allowed, because the PLA has seen through Indian shameful cowardice and lack of virtue.
round 2, operation Dead Snow Leopard.

Yes you're right, it's a waste of time trying to convince the blind. But I don't think that's what @Xsizor is trying to do. I think it's a good job what he us doing. And that is to exposed the BS coming out if @twineedle

Twineedle is like many Indian friends I know. They believe in their own source to be so creditable that any other source is by default must be wrong. Time and again, his stance is based on these sources, even if it proves to be wrong.

So what xsizor is doing isn't arguing with him per se. But exposes his flaws for all to see here. He must not let him get away with such lies here. After all we are here seeking knowledge and truth.

If you were referring to some posts just prior, then I have to disagree.

They want to set a narrative that
1. India achieved all its "strategic goals".
Not explaining what these goals were prior to Ladakh and what makes them strategic and how they achieved it.

2.China had to "retreat".

As if India didn't and buffer zones were created in India's perception and possession of LAC.

3. China initiated the conflict.

Not discounting it but media evidences point to Indian aggression at Galwan rather than China that initiated it. No counter evidences.

---

Agreeing to disagree means allowing some people to repeat what they want to, without obstruction. That would set the narrative that Chinese has one set of fact and India has another and both are right.

Leave it. I wouldn't bother. Chinese soldiers then ought to be taken as reliable and infallible sources too.

The claim I've some issue with is how all this is advantageous to India or according to its strategic goals - a very bad cope if there was one.

Keep up the hard work of using just logic to expose twineedle for what he is. He thinks he's a neutral thinker. When he is clearly the most bias towards India, but afraid to admitted.

 

[Xizor]

I fully understand your sentiments.
but you are not going to win our Indian friends over to your side, no matter how hard you try.
if they can ignore hard evidence including a real video, and stick to their narrative, then all sensible arguments and debate are not going to change them.
let them enjoy their delusional win, we would just enjoy the fruits of success of the newly established LAC to China's favour.

Its not about beating or winning them over. I've no such intentions.

There are a lot of lurkers in the forum. A person repeating a lie often can set the narrative and a reader of the forum may get the narrative that such deceitful actors might set.

I'm merely countering them so as to not let any narrative get set. I look at the thread as an important source for anyone looking to gain an understanding of Ladakh conflict. Uncountered, they'll be able to twist things to their own advantage.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Its not about beating or winning them over. I've no such intentions.

There are a lot of lurkers in the forum. A person repeating a lie often can set the narrative and a reader of the forum may get the narrative that such deceitful actors might set.

I'm merely countering them so as to not let any narrative get set. I look at the thread as an important source for anyone looking to gain an understanding of Ladakh conflict. Uncountered, they'll be able to twist things to their own advantage.

Exactly. It is for the benefit of other people on this forum. It is too late for the said individual. @twineedle is similar to our other member from the A-Team.

 

[ougoah]

Twineedle wants to say India never patrolled up to F8 in the past. Worse yet, he wants to say he has provided evidence. Yes an interview with an Indian military spokesperson counts as evidence somehow. Sorry but that's hardly a good source. Just like an Indian would deny what comes out of CCP's mouth (despite the CCP having not lied once on this occasion and India numerous times). Let's remind ourselves that India has always and continues to claim up to F8. This is a verifiable fact. India used to conduct patrols up to F8 as much as the US used to sail past the Taiwan strait. It's an informal show to the other side that their perception of the border is up to the points they patrol.

India no longer patrols past F3. PLA occupying F4 to F8 stretch and other parts in the north west was done in response to what China considered Indian build up in Galwan. This to me is totally understandable and to be honest more than justified for India. China is just too petty here it seems to not simply concede this land and continue selling the idea that this is sacred to China.

To warn the Indians against continued build up in Galwan, the occupation was done. It was disengaged when India agreed not only to stop build up but also to not patrol past F3. This is the price India paid for PLA "reEtRreEEeeT" lol. Okay fair enough. India won. India only backed off from F8 to F3 and associated points in the north west in exchange for PLA moving back from LAND THAT INDIA USED TO ACCESS AND NO LONGER DO, AFTER PLA OCCUPIED IT FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR AND SUCCESSFULLY REPELLED ALL INDIAN ATTEMPTS TO REVERSE.

Good "wYn!" India.

 

[Abominable]

Yes you're right, it's a waste of time trying to convince the blind. But I don't think that's what @Xsizor is trying to do. I think it's a good job what he us doing. And that is to exposed the BS coming out if @twineedle

Twineedle is like many Indian friends I know. They believe in their own source to be so creditable that any other source is by default must be wrong. Time and again, his stance is based on these sources, even if it proves to be wrong.

So what xsizor is doing isn't arguing with him per se. But exposes his flaws for all to see here. He must not let him get away with such lies here. After all we are here seeking knowledge and truth.



Keep up the hard work of using just logic to expose twineedle for what he is. He thinks he's a neutral thinker. When he is clearly the most bias towards India, but afraid to admitted.

Logic will get you no where with people like twineedle. Read any Indian community discussion, twitter feed, comments on youtube. They are all 100% convinced that both the battle and the peace agreement were a big victory of India.

It reminds me of a video a European traveller made of his experience visiting India. He saw all the pollution, public defacation, literal corpses floating in rivers that people drank from, cows wandering around the streets eating litter - it all was a big culture shock to him. At the end of the video he asked one of his Indian hosts whether they thought India would ever become a developed country.

The Indian guy responded "what do you mean, we are developed!"

That is what people like twineedle and millions of others like him think.

I've visited third world countries in Asia, Africa, seen parts of Europe that resemble the third world. No one is under any delusions like the Indian people are. Not all of course, but the good ones tend to leave.

I think Chinese policy on this has shown the complete lack of experience of the Indian psyche. What they did would be fine with a with South Koreans, Japanese, Americans, but with Indians it is entirely counterproductive. Rather than damaging their ego, you've strengthened it.

 

[jfy1155]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365870123052113922

 

[siegecrossbow]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1365870123052113922

That's not really speculation. One of the common tactics for getting promotion is for Indian soldiers to cross the LAC, snap some photos, and send them to the HQ for reward. This tactic worked very well in the past because China didn't have enough infrastructure in the region to properly patrol it.

 

[twineedle]

I fully understand your sentiments.
but you are not going to win our Indian friends over to your side, no matter how hard you try.
if they can ignore hard evidence including a real video, and stick to their narrative, then all sensible arguments and debate are not going to change them.
let them enjoy their delusional win, we would just enjoy the fruits of success of the newly established LAC to China's favour.

What hard evidence have you presented? So far only I have been presenting evidence

 

[twineedle]

Yes you're right, it's a waste of time trying to convince the blind. But I don't think that's what @Xsizor is trying to do. I think it's a good job what he us doing. And that is to exposed the BS coming out if @twineedle

Twineedle is like many Indian friends I know. They believe in their own source to be so creditable that any other source is by default must be wrong. Time and again, his stance is based on these sources, even if it proves to be wrong.

So what xsizor is doing isn't arguing with him per se. But exposes his flaws for all to see here. He must not let him get away with such lies here. After all we are here seeking knowledge and truth.



Keep up the hard work of using just logic to expose twineedle for what he is. He thinks he's a neutral thinker. When he is clearly the most bias towards India, but afraid to admitted.

Lol the only thing he has done is discredit my sources and fail to present any evidence countering my arguements.

 

[twineedle]

Its not about beating or winning them over. I've no such intentions.

There are a lot of lurkers in the forum. A person repeating a lie often can set the narrative and a reader of the forum may get the narrative that such deceitful actors might set.

I'm merely countering them so as to not let any narrative get set. I look at the thread as an important source for anyone looking to gain an understanding of Ladakh conflict. Uncountered, they'll be able to twist things to their own advantage.

I agree with you there. That is why I am trying to present clear evidence such as satellite imagery, that shows the ground reality. It is for that reason why I have avoided using Indian media as a source.