Ladakh Flash Point

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Looks like Modi is trying to avoid a fight at all costs. He didn't mention China by name in either of the two speeches he gave. My prediction is that if nothing happens by the middle of August (when snow cuts off supply lines) nothing will happen this year.

Yes, a military conflict with China would be disastrous for India.

I was just having a look at the military balance in Kashmir between China, India and also Pakistan.

If China and India get into a conflict - I think it highly likely that Pakistan will join in that conflict.

And I simply do not see the Indian military being able to hold Kashmir if the following occurs:

1. China-India end up in a war
2. Pakistan also starts military operations in Kashmir, knowing that they cannot lose, because they have Chinese backing.
3. A popular uprising occurs in Kashmir against the occupying Indian Army, because this is the best chance for independence they will have.

And India will be alone, because China and Pakistan are liberating the oppressed Kashmiri people from the Indian Army police state.

Plus it's not credible for India to threaten to use nukes, because they would be on the losing end of such an exchange.

It's not like the Hindu supremacist BJP believes Kashmiri Muslims are real Indians citizens in any case...
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I am receptive of the underlying emotions when you say "China may relieve Kashmir".

But while at it, why not separate and create a Sikh state out of India too? Just make the PLA and PA to March a few kilometers down the Kashmir Valley to reach the Arabian sea and you've got yourself another group of people eager to break away from India.

Let's be real. Liberating Kashmir is not probable or possible. It is far fetched. Even more so for China whose capacity for sustained offensive capability would be termed as modest by me.

There's the threat of nuclear weapons from India too.
The best thing China can do would be to open a line for delivering equipments and ammunition for Pakistani Army (who has got enough reasons to endure the pain) and hope to neutralize the Indian Nuclear threat by helping Pakistan in prompt first strike.
Then there exists the threat of Indian Navy. India's submarines are a credible threat to Pakistan. Neutralizing Indian Nuclear sub is difficult too. I think they'd have moved it to a safe place (Eastern coast of India already may have a Hainan like Sub dock/shelter albeit much smaller).
Both India and Pakistan would have already slugged low kt theater nukes by then.

Summary :
Covertly supporting Pakistan with hardware, Limiting Russian and Israeli support to India and helping Arab-Pak cooperation is the best way.

Honestly, it's a mess.
Let's just be real in our approach and not sink as low as the members of the many Indian Defence forums with their "Liberating Tibet " and "we hab the best army in the wold" .
I'm not saying you degraded the discussion (can't assume the high horse myself) but I'm feeling a bit shaky regarding the direction we are taking.
I believe in the quality offered here at SDF. Even Defence.pk has seen a degrade in quality.

My analysis on Kashmir has is not made from emotions.
It's a cold hard reading of the military balance in Kashmir, and the outcomes.
Separating Kashmir from India is entirely possible.

Look at the geography and distances within Kashmir.
It's mountainous territory with only a few roads into Srinagar.

A combined Pakistan-China force would be able to obtain air superiority over Kashmir given the huge imbalance in air force strength.
That is even before we take into account Chinese missile forces that could keep Indian airbases under continuous attack.
You can do a rough analysis yourself.

And what happens to the Indian Army when an enemy is in control of the air? Look at Iraq and Kosovo for examples.

Even if the Chinese couldn't obtain air superiority, MLRS systems can keep the mountain roads closed, and keep the Indian Army forces from resupply.

But how is the Indian Army supposed to maintain control of the Kashmir Valley (and its 7million Muslims) if they are cut off?

--

A war in Kashmiri would be decided by who has control of the skies.

India using nukes is not credible. They would be on the losing end of any exchange against Pakistan/China.

Also remember that the Hindu supremacist BJP doesn't believe Kashmiri Muslims are real Indians citizens...
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
@AndrewS @Xsizor

Regarding decisive action on Kashmir: We are only in the positioning stage right now. The board is not set up yet for decisive action. All that is happening right now is that China is flooding forces in theater, while continuing to increase its interoperability with the Pakistani military. This is to set up a real threat of a two-front war. The immediate effect of this is that all of India's war plans are now obsolete.

The key indicator here is that one side's options are increasing, while the other sides options are shrinking. Strategically, whenever this starts happening, it means that the game is headed into the 'end-game' territory. (By the way, one of those options is achieving victory without even going to war, by destabilizing India from within.) Either way, all China and Pakistan have to do for now is to keep positioning their forces, integrating war plans and forces, and accelerating past India's defensive capabilities. Time is on our side. The opportunity for decisive action will present itself.

Yes, I agree time is on the side of China and Pakistan with respect to Kashmir.

A key mistake was the BJP giving in to its Hindu-supremacist impulses and revoking Article 370 which guaranteed Kashmir's autonomy and self-government.

All those advocating working with the Indian government in the the existing system were betrayed overnight.
That ended any willing allegiance that India had over the moderates.

All that is left now is the violent overthrow of the occupying Indian Army.

Think about the rumours that must now be circulating within Kashmir, even with the Internet censorship that the Indian government imposes.

So the Kashmiri people know that India and China are poised for war, but also that the Chinese economy and Chinese military is far larger than India.
 

daifo

Captain
Registered Member
Every land neighbor of India may take advantage of the situation and do a land grab, not to mention India's maoist rebels and other sects of people.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Right now China is just adding pressure to the border, it could be a setup for something bigger or simply to encourage India to back down.

Given the dire situation in Kashmir, it might be the morally right move for China to put down it's foot and stamp out this "quad" axis before it can fully materalize. But it would take courage from the leadership.

It's very hard to tell what Beijing actually wants, whether they are being passive because they're completely committed to the peace agenda and international world order or if they're being passive just waiting for the right moment to do something.

The government in China masks its long term plans way more than any other government I can think of. For better or worse.
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
Breitbart news as original source. Enough said.

As I've stated several times before, if the Indians had any real evidence of Chinese casualties or captives it would've made rounds across the world by now. What's there to prevent them from leaking real names or photos of dead PLA if something as trivial as a Chinese CO getting punched made headlines in their news?
Actually this whole article is an Indian article wrapped in a Breitbart label ... it's always the Indian media said this or reported that
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes, a military conflict with China would be disastrous for India.

I was just having a look at the military balance in Kashmir between China, India and also Pakistan.

If China and India get into a conflict - I think it highly likely that Pakistan will join in that conflict.

And I simply do not see the Indian military being able to hold Kashmir if the following occurs:

1. China-India end up in a war
2. Pakistan also starts military operations in Kashmir, knowing that they cannot lose, because they have Chinese backing.
3. A popular uprising occurs in Kashmir against the occupying Indian Army, because this is the best chance for independence they will have.

And India will be alone, because China and Pakistan are liberating the oppressed Kashmiri people from the Indian Army police state.

Plus it's not credible for India to threaten to use nukes, because they would be on the losing end of such an exchange.

It's not like the Hindu supremacist BJP believes Kashmiri Muslims are real Indians citizens in any case...

I think that is probable.

In the long run, if China were not facing the U.S. as an adversary, India would not be a match and there are many ways for the Chinese to deal with India, including breaking up the country into many different ones. However, with the U.S. breathing down on China, they must choose carefully. If they break up India into smaller countries, the West will no doubt get its foot into some of these countries and now you have a permanent war at your borders. From this point of view, India under a single country is in the interest of China.
If they take South Tibet, they now have to spend the time and energy to digest a region with considerable Indian influence. Again, that would not be in their current interest. Particularly, this region acts as a vacuum cleaner sucking large amount of Indian resources defending it while the cost to the Chinese is quite small due to favorable logistics and terrain. However, this does not mean that if a shot was fired by the Indian army, that there would be no consequences.

If you see how the borders around Ladah was drawn, it was a very interesting study. The Chinese won the 62 and can draw the border however it sees fit. The border was drawn this way because on the other side of the border, there is usually a river that runs at the bottom of the canyon. This makes it difficult to supply the other side if you put your soldiers on the other side, at least back in 62. The Chinese, being pragmatists, chose to have a border with lower maintenance instead of getting the last inch of land. Unfortunately, the Indians have built up some roads over the years to the piece of relatively flat ground in Ladah that the Chinese left behind. If even a single shot is fired, I think the Chinese will annihilate the Indian forces and take over this area with the relatively flat terrain, leaving the relatively rugged mountains as their border to India.

Under this scenario, China draw and take out large number of Indian troops would give a window of opportunity to Pakistan to take back Kashmir. Once taken back, I don't see a way for India to re-take it anytime soon. Modi would probably lose the election if they fail to take back Kashmir.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
China isn’t pushing for conflict, basically every move it has made has been to de-escalate while firmly pushing back against Indian advances.

If China wanted to escalate the situation, it could have done so many simple, almost standard things to put massive pressure on Modi to ‘respond’. Beijing no doubt have video footage of the clash, and could easily release it to humiliate the Indian army; it could push India much hard diplomatically; and it could be actively advancing on the boarder. Hell, even just releasing the PLA casualty figures would probably be enough to have Indian ultranationalists foaming at the mouth.

What China wants is a peaceful boarder, and while Beijing might not have went into this crisis with a view of giving India a bloody nose, we must remember that plans are never fixed, but rather always changing based on facts on the ground.

China would have noted the muted response of the rest of the Quad, and America in particular, and taken that into consideration.

America is fully occupied with its COVID19 disaster, and the rest of the world is more dependent on Chinese supplies than ever before as they also struggle to contain their own outbreaks. As such, it would be fair to conclude that the west’s appetite for sticking its oar into China’s business is at an all time low.

China has already effectively proven that with its HK national security bill. What, in normal times, would have been a major issue that could have led to massive pressure from western governments only got the bare minimum lip service needed to keep western domestic pressure groups in check.

If China wanted to give India a spanking, now is the perfect opportunity.

However, we must also remember that India is very low on Beijing’s priority list.

Yes, India is a unredeemable hostile power that China will need to deal with eventually, but given past and current Indian performance, one can easily see why China sees no hurry to press the issue.

Unlike China vs the US, where China is narrowing the lead the US has on it with every passing day, the gap between India and China only grows wider with time. As such, India is a problem that China can keep on the back burner to revisit in the future.

I personally would be much more worried about Taiwan.

Beijing has seen first hand what foreign hostile powers have managed in HK, so I think there is now a new sense of urgency in that if the same hostile powers are allowed to continue poisoning generations of Taiwan’s youth against China, peaceful reunification would not only be completely off the table forever, even military options would become increasingly unpalatable with a resolutely hostile population.

I think strategists and leaders in Beijing are having long and hard looks at China’s options right now, and the last thing they want is to have some of those options become untenable because of some meaningless pissing contest with India on the boarder.

I think China’s strategy is to exert maximum pressure on India now to get them to back down as soon as possible, and to wait for the moment of maximum leverage to make a decision on Taiwan.

Nothing is set in stone, and a lot will still depend on outside factors. But, if the COVID19 outbreak and internal racial tensions continue to deteriorate in the US, and if China ‘wins’ the COVID19 vaccine race, I think enough chips would fall in place to make a move on Taiwan viable.

If China has the world’s first and only viable COVID19 vaccine in mass production, with deliveries to the US and EU promised on the coming weeks; and suddenly an ‘unexpected incident’ sparks a shooting war across the straits that escalated with unprecedented rapidity, would the EU and the US give up on their covid19 vaccine deliveries for Taiwan? Especially as they are struggling to contain a second or even third wave, as seem all but inevitable given the rush to lift the lockdown now, while the outbreak is still far from contained?

As I said, I think China is keen to cool the boarder clash with India as soon as possible, as I have a feeling things might start getting very heated in the straits in the coming months.
 

Maxef208

New Member
Registered Member
China isn’t pushing for conflict, basically every move it has made has been to de-escalate while firmly pushing back against Indian advances.

If China wanted to escalate the situation, it could have done so many simple, almost standard things to put massive pressure on Modi to ‘respond’. Beijing no doubt have video footage of the clash, and could easily release it to humiliate the Indian army; it could push India much hard diplomatically; and it could be actively advancing on the boarder. Hell, even just releasing the PLA casualty figures would probably be enough to have Indian ultranationalists foaming at the mouth.

What China wants is a peaceful boarder, and while Beijing might not have went into this crisis with a view of giving India a bloody nose, we must remember that plans are never fixed, but rather always changing based on facts on the ground.

China would have noted the muted response of the rest of the Quad, and America in particular, and taken that into consideration.

America is fully occupied with its COVID19 disaster, and the rest of the world is more dependent on Chinese supplies than ever before as they also struggle to contain their own outbreaks. As such, it would be fair to conclude that the west’s appetite for sticking its oar into China’s business is at an all time low.

China has already effectively proven that with its HK national security bill. What, in normal times, would have been a major issue that could have led to massive pressure from western governments only got the bare minimum lip service needed to keep western domestic pressure groups in check.

If China wanted to give India a spanking, now is the perfect opportunity.

However, we must also remember that India is very low on Beijing’s priority list.

Yes, India is a unredeemable hostile power that China will need to deal with eventually, but given past and current Indian performance, one can easily see why China sees no hurry to press the issue.

Unlike China vs the US, where China is narrowing the lead the US has on it with every passing day, the gap between India and China only grows wider with time. As such, India is a problem that China can keep on the back burner to revisit in the future.

I personally would be much more worried about Taiwan.

Beijing has seen first hand what foreign hostile powers have managed in HK, so I think there is now a new sense of urgency in that if the same hostile powers are allowed to continue poisoning generations of Taiwan’s youth against China, peaceful reunification would not only be completely off the table forever, even military options would become increasingly unpalatable with a resolutely hostile population.

I think strategists and leaders in Beijing are having long and hard looks at China’s options right now, and the last thing they want is to have some of those options become untenable because of some meaningless pissing contest with India on the boarder.

I think China’s strategy is to exert maximum pressure on India now to get them to back down as soon as possible, and to wait for the moment of maximum leverage to make a decision on Taiwan.

Nothing is set in stone, and a lot will still depend on outside factors. But, if the COVID19 outbreak and internal racial tensions continue to deteriorate in the US, and if China ‘wins’ the COVID19 vaccine race, I think enough chips would fall in place to make a move on Taiwan viable.

If China has the world’s first and only viable COVID19 vaccine in mass production, with deliveries to the US and EU promised on the coming weeks; and suddenly an ‘unexpected incident’ sparks a shooting war across the straits that escalated with unprecedented rapidity, would the EU and the US give up on their covid19 vaccine deliveries for Taiwan? Especially as they are struggling to contain a second or even third wave, as seem all but inevitable given the rush to lift the lockdown now, while the outbreak is still far from contained?

As I said, I think China is keen to cool the boarder clash with India as soon as possible, as I have a feeling things might start getting very heated in the straits in the coming months.
I think this issue is de-escalated will only be temporary and the next PM wannabe is going to make this a definite thing to run on and act on if they win. I also wouldn't doubt that even if China wins the vaccine race, countries will hold out just to spite China, and the populace might go along just because they've been conditioned to hate and distrust anything China. So they'd rather die than"trust China who started this whole damn thing" again.
 
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