China and India relationship

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nemo

Junior Member
In the 1962 border skirmishes,

India: 10,000 men
China: 80,000 men

In context, the Maurya army in 326 BC was 100,000.
So, calling 10,000 men as Indian army is up to you.

Back you actual question, PLA entered Aksai Chin (part of Ladakh, not part of Tibet) in 1959, surreptitiously.

No territorial changes happened in 1962.
There was no treaty or acceptance of any ultimatum.
China withrew from invaded parts unilaterally.

This is physically impossible. There is actually an unclassified US intelligence report on this, and they estimate neither Chinese or Indian has more than 20000 men due to logistical limitation. Indeed, the detailed OB from Chinese side totaled around 20000 men.

This is what you get for relying on wikipedia article edited by Indian. If I remembered correctly, they cite a quote from a soldier on Chinese *LOCAL* numerical superiority, which is definitely *NOT* total numerical superiority.
In fact, Indian forces actually have a slight total numerical superiority. Achieving local superiority despite of numerical inferiority is called tactical/operational skill.
 

Lethe

Captain
It is sad to hear such sentiments from pla101prc. India has enormous potential and will likely realise at least a good proportion of it going forward. The next generation is China's, but the generation after that belongs to India. India's ongoing development will almost certainly be neither as rapid as China's, nor as tidy, but it will occur. The latest projections from Jim O'Neill (former Goldman Sachs guy who coined the term 'BRICs') has India's GDP at two-thirds of the United States' by 2050. This is somewhat larger than China's GDP relative to the United States today.

On the other hand, we should also not blind ourselves to the significant challenges that await India in future. One issue that is not given enough attention I think -- probably because it is difficult to say anything concrete about it -- is that India's period of ascension will coincide with what are expected to be regional and global resource shortages, manifest effects of climate change, etc. These 'externalities' that the West and East Asia will have largely managed to avoid by rising earlier, could significantly derail the growth of the Indian nation, to say nothing of the wellbeing of its citizens. Also, I think Doombreed's assertion of a 13yr gap between Chinese and Indian development is rather too optimistic: by most indicators the gap is 25-30 years, and I would lean towards the higher end of this estimate.
 
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Blackstone

Brigadier
Looks like China and India ended their latest border stand-off without bitterness or recriminations, in public anyway.
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BEIJING: China on Tuesday said the stand-off with India at the Ladakh region has been resolved as both sides had completed simultaneous withdrawal of troops.

India and China have completed withdrawal of troops from a stand-off at the border on Tuesday, Chinese foreign ministry said in a press release.

"On September 30, the frontier defence troops of the two countries completed simultaneous withdrawal according to the steps formulated by the two sides and restored peace and tranquility in the area," the release said.
 

Jiang ZeminFanboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
Tensions rising at Ladaks, video, and photos are recent. (last incidents)


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hullopilllw

Junior Member
Registered Member
It is sad to hear such sentiments from pla101prc. India has enormous potential and will likely realise at least a good proportion of it going forward. The next generation is China's, but the generation after that belongs to India. India's ongoing development will almost certainly be neither as rapid as China's, nor as tidy, but it will occur. The latest projections from Jim O'Neill (former Goldman Sachs guy who coined the term 'BRICs') has India's GDP at two-thirds of the United States' by 2050. This is somewhat larger than China's GDP relative to the United States today.

On the other hand, we should also not blind ourselves to the significant challenges that await India in future. One issue that is not given enough attention I think -- probably because it is difficult to say anything concrete about it -- is that India's period of ascension will coincide with what are expected to be regional and global resource shortages, manifest effects of climate change, etc. These 'externalities' that the West and East Asia will have largely managed to avoid by rising earlier, could significantly derail the growth of the Indian nation, to say nothing of the wellbeing of its citizens. Also, I think Doombreed's assertion of a 13yr gap between Chinese and Indian development is rather too optimistic: by most indicators the gap is 25-30 years, and I would lean towards the higher end of this estimate.

Perhaps India should focus on completing her basic industrialisation first we talk about any chance of her living up to potential. Progression is not of a linear nature, as long as one don't make it pass a stage, then it will remains stuck there forever.
 

supercat

Major
As the commentator Maitreya Bhakal says:
The same people who yesterday compared India favorably to China - are today wondering how best it can choose sides between the two superpowers (U.S. and China). With no sense of irony of course.

An excellent opinion piece analyzing why tension flared up at Ladakhat recently (the author is a Nepalese):
India’s strategic illusions, delusion and hallucinations
New Delhi is headed for trouble in Ladakh and the broader region if it repeats past mistakes on dealing with Beijing
by Bhim Bhurtel June 5, 2020

Indian strategists have been suffering from illusion, delusion, and hallucination since their country’s independence from the British Empire. Their illusions are connected to India’s perception of itself. They harbor delusions in their perception of strategic support made available by superpowers and experience hallucinations when looking toward China.

The military standoff between the Indian and Chinese armies at Ladakh for the last three weeks tells a tale of a strategic dilemma that could prove a severe setback to India in the future.

The Ladakh standoff

The recent Sino-Indian military standoff at Ladakh is not an ugly dispute over the barren land in the high Himalaya. It is a manifestation of Asian powers’ moves on the geo-strategic chessboard. Several issues have resulted in China’s resentment against India and have caused Beijing to mount pressure on New Delhi.

First, India backed a joint effort by Australia and the European Union calling for an independent inquiry into the World Health Organization’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic, according to a draft resolution proposed for the 73rd World Health Assembly meeting held in Geneva on May 18.

Second, India’s external affairs minister, Subrahmanyam Jaishankar, participated in a seven-nation virtual meeting of foreign ministers recently convened by US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, in what was seen as the US attempt to pave the way for full membership of Taiwan in the WHO.

The meeting was attended by the foreign ministers of Australia, Brazil, Israel, Japan and South Korea. All are US non-NATO allies, and they have always supported Washington’s any demand.

Besides, New Delhi plans to send government ministers to Taiwan to explore cultural and commercial cooperation. India is looking for technological assistance from Taiwan in electronics, fifth-generation (5G) telecom technology, semiconductors, and health-care technology. From Beijing’s point of view, this is evidence of New Delhi backing away from its commitment to the one-China policy.

Third is India’s increasing participation in the US-led Quadrilateral alliance in the Indo-Pacific region. The Quad facilitates India’s defense and security ties with the US, Japan and Australia, based on the United States’ strategy that stresses international cooperation, transparency, and openness in the region. India’s covert support for the US strategy in the South China Sea has resulted in Beijing’s further suspicion.

Fourth, last month, Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government announced the prohibition of Chinese investments in India, a step China called discriminatory and a violation of World Trade Organization rules.

Fifth, India dropped the idea of participating in the Asia-Pacific Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership at the last minute. The RCEP is a flagship free-trade partnership proposed by China for regional trade agreements among the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, South Korea, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and India.

Sixth, Indian strategists indulged in a gross overestimation when concluding that China’s losses due to the Covid-19 pandemic would turn out to be India’s gain. They deduced that a vast number of American companies would relocate to India in the aftermath of the pandemic.

However, facts on the ground suggest only 5% of American factories in China relocated to India after the US-China trade war started in March 2018. The American companies’ preferred relocations were not to India but to Vietnam, Thailand or Taiwan.

The Global Competitive Report suggests India lags behind China in all infrastructure Indicators. The president of the US-India Business Council at the American Chamber of Commerce, Nisha Desai Biswal, corroborated the facts in an interview with The Print.

Last, India has further antagonized China because Modi hasn’t fulfilled the promises made during the informal summits with Chinese President Xi Jinping in Wuhan and Mamallapuram.

For example, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian, without referring to any particular agreement,
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last month, “We urge the Indian side to work together with us, abide by our leadership’s important consensus, comply with the agreements signed, and refrain from unilateral actions complicating the situation.”

To be continued below...
 
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