Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

So assuming neither side drastically escalates....

The question is, who's going to fold first? Just how much impact is their spread having on Hong Kong's major businesses and day to day operations (tourism, finance)?

If it's minimal, then I imagine the government will be pretty content just letting them do their thing for weeks, months, however long it takes till they burn themselves out.

It's already having an impact already. stocks dropped by 500 points today. I suppose that's half a reason the police also retreated..to open up the traffic a bit since the protestors arent gonna cause trouble anyway. At the same time, the protestors, while disrupting normal operations, aren't violent so not earning any bad reps or impression other than those who's suffered inconvenience from this ordeal

 

[Blitzo]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

It's already having an impact already. stocks dropped by 500 points today. I suppose that's half a reason the police also retreated..to open up the traffic a bit since the protestors arent gonna cause trouble anyway. At the same time, the protestors, while disrupting normal operations, aren't violent so not earning any bad reps or impression other than those who's suffered inconvenience from this ordeal

If nothing gets violent... then, how long will it take until the wider city starts feeling the impact of the movement?

China probably wouldn't be bothered by HK's financial and economic performance too much, compared to what they'll see as the absurdity of those demands. But how will the populace, protester or not, act once they start to feel a notcieable material effect as a result of the prolonged inconvenience?

China is also being surprisingly low key about this, it seems. I wonder if their plan is just to wait the movement out, maybe seek moderates to have discussions with in the meantime.

Also, like A Mace said, how long are they willing to stay peaceful if the government doesn't fold to their demands? They've given both sides no room to maneuver, and attrition is against them.

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

If nothing gets violent... then, how long will it take until the wider city starts feeling the impact of the movement?

China probably wouldn't be bothered by HK's financial and economic performance too much, compared to what they'll see as the absurdity of those demands. But how will the populace, protester or not, act once they start to feel a notcieable material effect as a result of the prolonged inconvenience?

China is also being surprisingly low key about this, it seems. I wonder if their plan is just to wait the movement out, maybe seek moderates to have discussions with in the meantime.

Also, like A Mace said, how long are they willing to stay peaceful if the government doesn't fold to their demands? They've given both sides no room to maneuver, and attrition is against them.

Another phase that's happening, which I think hurts the most, is that some businesses and workers are considering the option of strike. Some organizations are already on strike, such as the education infrastructure. The attempt is to shut down HK or cause enough disruption, and this is to be done through civil disobedience without vandalism or criminal actions. Furthermore, the police actions, plus the excellent use of social media, had gained enormous spread of the words around and basically everywhere this news is on the headlines. Lots and lots of rallies are popping up in cities around the world, with a lot of coordination of events over Facebook. The media attention is also making HKSAR in an even tighter position, so they are more desperate for time than we are. Disrupting a week at Central will be already more than enough. Vandalism and doing all those stuffs are totally irrelevant and pointless. Also, these protestors are not rioters. They are organized with slogans and leaders and told what to do and what not to do.

We honestly not worried about time, and even if we get nothing out of it, I highly doubt anything will erupt in flames.

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

I don't know what's the point noting how no store was damaged or set fire. Was that a knock on US protestors? If there were a bunch of known "Mainlander" owned stores, that might be a different story. Wait until time passes and nothing happens. That's the way it usually works. It's called escalation. China can sit this out and do nothing and these protestors will be doing all the damage and "set fire" to Hong Kong. It's exactly like how Hong Kongers shot themselves in the foot during the handover. They scared away money and Western expatriates.

No that's just the protestors reminding of themselves to be civil and proper and not to give critics a chance to slam them for poor behaviours or violent or vandals etc.

And no I'm sure the mainland businesses won't be targeted. There had already been way more appealing or actual targets than mainland stores, and honestly this whole movement is fighting for Hk's democracy. It's meant to be political, not racial. Plus, I really haven't heard of anyone mentioning mainland Chinese other than blaming the CCP/Beijing and 689(CE). The heat of the focus this entire time had been completely very organized and focused on the actual priorities and points they want to deliver: Beijing, Direct Election, No more CY, stop with police brutality, disrupt the normal functions, safety, and act civil to prevent criticisms and demonstrate they are truly peaceful. It's a societal movement, and a lot of grassroots people like elderly, teenagers, students.

For the rest of what you've said, we'll see, but I'm quite optimistic.

It's exactly like how Hong Kongers shot themselves in the foot during the handover. They scared away money and Western expatriates.

There are a lot of expats in HK. Where did you even get this from.

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

Actually here it is:

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Actually not 500 points, but 1.6%

Thousands of pro-democracy protestors continued to block Hong Kong’s streets this morning, forcing some of the city’s biggest companies to ask staff to stay home, and prompting the territory’s central bank to set emergency plans in motion.
After police fired tear gas at “Occupy Central” protestors on Sunday night in Hong Kong’s central business district, demonstrations spread overnight to at least three other busy districts, spreading Hong Kong’s police force thin.

Reuters/Bobby Yip
Exhausted students napped on sidewalks and in the center of roads, shared food, and sang songs. Students with garbage bags moved through the crowd, picking up cigarette butts and other litter, while organizers cleared public crosswalks so that pedestrian commuters could get to work.

The students were joined last night by thousands of other recruits, who said they’d been drawn to the protests after seeing footage of police tear-gassing students the night before. “If a group of students is expressing their opinion in a peaceful way, I think we should support them,” Anthony, a 27-year old marketing executive, told Quartz.
The stated aim of some demonstrators—to bring one of the world’s most important financial districts to a standstill until demands for free elections are met—seems to be working, at least partially. Companies including Ernst & Young and CITIC told their employees to stay home, the city closed schools in several neighborhoods and stores closed. Branches, offices, and ATMs of more than a dozen banks have been temporarily closed because of “public disorder,” the Hong Kong Monetary Authority said in an emailed statement, and the HKMA has activated “business contingency plans.” Over 200 bus routes have been either canceled or diverted and several metro stations near protest sites were either closed by officials, or barricaded by protestors.

Normally bumper-to-bumper traffic was non-existent in the early hours of the morning.

Within 30 minutes of markets’ opening, Hong Kong’s Hang Seng index was down more than 1.6%.
Response in China has been swift. Public discussion and images of the demonstrations are quickly being scrubbed from the Chinese internet: Instagram appears to have been blocked in mainland China, and discussion of protests was scrubbed from the microblog Weibo. Chinese news organizations have been instructed to delete any information on the “Hong Kong students violently assaulting the government” from their websites, although the state-owned China Daily, which publishes in English, carried a lengthy account of the “illegal assembly” and “unauthorized sit-in” that “spun out of control.”
Currently, the top story on the English-language version of Xinhua, China’s state news wire, is about praise for president Xi Jinping’s speech about reunification with Taiwan.
That point of view seems to be absent in Taiwan itself, where Taiwanese students are now holding a sit-in at the Hong Kong Hong Kong Economic Trade and Culture Office, in Taipei, in solidarity with Hong Kong:

It's definitely the beginning. Also, the fact that the most critical and tense moment for riot was actually last night when the protests may not be completely organized yet, but now as people get accustomed to things, it's going to be a lot different.

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

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關於我們
政治
【佔領】梁振英、曾偉雄，是佔中幕後推手 ／ 區家麟
BY 區家麟 ON 29/09/2014 • ( 2 則迴響 )
IMG_4214有果必有因。八個前因，看梁振英與曾偉雄如何令佔中「遍地開花」︰

近因︰

警方無理長時間拘留黃之鋒，並不尋常地入屋搜證，激起民憤。陪伴黃之鋒保釋的律師韋智達表示︰法官批出人身保護令之時，「望著法庭四周表示，如果警方早就釋放黃之鋒，這一切都不會發生。」（見明報報道）
學生重奪公民廣場一晚，場外示威者和平靜坐，警方根本不需要使用胡椒噴霧等粗暴手段，個別警員行為野蠻、目露兇光，於互聯網廣傳，激起民憤。

佔中集會剛開始，警方阻止音響器材入場，並隨便以「阻差辦公」扣留泛民議員。佔中行動沒有專業揚聲器，失去直接指揮群眾的能力，運動主導權，落在普通市民手上。

本來，若警方按以往做法，容許市民到添馬總部外集會，當時事情發展，對政府的最壞情況，可能如國教重演，但警方竟選擇封閉海富中心天橋，令市民聚集於金鐘對面馬路。

市民由多個方向企圖進入會場，攤薄了警力，本來一場集會，旋即變成了陣地攻防戰，令更多市民聞風支援。

警方應對︰

亂用催淚彈︰筆者現場所見，發放催淚彈前，示威群眾並無異動。警方不可能不事先推演事態發展，不可能不知道，光天化日射催淚彈，觸怒示威人士，瞬間情緒高漲，令抗爭之心更為堅定。不少示威人士即場數得出，近二十年，政府只用過催淚彈對付世貿示威的韓農，與越南船民營騷亂，當時，韓農有燃燒彈、船民有大量削尖的自製武器。而今次警方發放催淚彈，對付的是手無寸鐵的示威者，發催淚彈後，更多聲援市民陸續趕到，壯大示威聲勢。
現場所見，示威者其實也害怕催淚彈，走得很快，第一次接觸，很多人甚為驚惶。但是，示威者退後時，防暴警察卻沒有部署好，重奪路面空間。氣體散去，人群又重佔路面。警方配合失當，令到「第一彈」，沒有震懾之效、沒有驅趕之效，只有刺激人群，挑動情緒的作用。

警方堅持不退，不開放添馬，加上催淚氣體四處飄揚，令部分人散開，漫步至中環、及灣仔，令佔領行動「遍地開花」，催淚彈功不可歿。

IMG_4179
每一發催淚彈，就多一格抗爭之心
遠因︰

梁振英從來不介意實現其「競選承諾」（遲早要出放暴隊與催淚彈），激化對立，鼓動鬥爭，有權盡用，進而濫用；人大落閘，歪理連篇，視民意如無物；政改諮詢，浪費了社會寶貴時間，又低估市民怨氣，這些說過太多，就不再說了。

佔領與催淚彈的影像，瞬即傳遍全球，各地媒體大篇幅報道，這是對政府另一種無形壓力。

為何有大量外國傳媒聚集香港？原來是中央政府自食其果。據vox.com報道，中央政府近兩、三年來，阻礙外國記者駐內地採訪，令到大量外國記者「滯留」香港，而這些記者非等閑之輩，都是資深及影響力大的記者。報道說，再一次證明，「審查新聞，要付出代價」。

要一向平和的香港市民，佔領中環、佔領金鐘、佔領灣仔、佔領銅鑼灣、佔領旺角，堅持一夜，並不容易，學民思潮做不到、學聯做不到、佔中三子做不到，梁振英與曾偉雄超額完成任務。

而今問題在，他們是否刻意的，是否樂見其「亂」，然後以非常手段，實踐暴政，達致「大亂而大治」的理想？

And this is another thing. Too many people who doesn't understand HK comment on how HKers are, and they've got it all wrong. How HKers behaved this time is beyond me too because I never thought this will be the outcome. No violence or destructive behaviours, although in a way I think how the police used tear gas unprovoked made the people even more determined not to act in such irrational behaviour. Another possibility I also think could be how the students began the protest by quiet sitting, which earned the admiration of the public, hence when they are attacked people went to protect them. Furthermore, another feeling I had was that most of the protesting participants are general public, or those who called for "peaceful OC" and thus neutral or not actually within the "more zealous" OC community, so they would behave with less zeal and more like normal folks. Also you have a lot of just regular families and elders and friends in this event who are clearly here to support the students, so this crowd is literally the public, not to mention they established slogans to remind themselves to not act unreasonably.

 

[SampanViking]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

At the end of the day, this is just a protest in a Free Society, so as long as there is no general inconvenience to the public, they should be able to sit on the street all week if they wish and its no big deal.

There are however the underlying issues that should be looked at and measures taken to resolve them.
No doubt about it, that the biggest underlying issue is the property asset bubble and its fueling by mainland investors with few other outlets for the money.

It makes sense that to liberalise the overseas investment regulations for Mainland Citizens in some way, would be an obvious way to take the heat out of the that particular fire. I would propose that the Chinese Banks start some "Peoples Investment Funds" (to differentiate from the Sovereign variety), essentially a managed fund, that would enable even modest investors to speculate a proportion of their money abroad, while not allowing those with dubious earnings to make an even easier run for cover.

There are of course issues within the SAR that would still need resolving and central to this is the underlying truth that Hong Kong is in a 50 year transitional period for full reintegration into the Mainland. The key words being of course transition and integration.
Two factors to bear in mind
1) Tails do not wag dogs
2) Transition does not mean 50 years of 1997 and wake up in the mainland in 2047.

The protests relate to elections in 2017, which will make twenty years of post colonial rule and mark the entrance to the mid way of the transitional period. At half way, it does not seem unrealistic for the process of transition/reintegration to start becoming quite apparent and for change to be ongoing.

One of the weirdest anomalies to be bequeathed to the Chinese State at the beginning of the 21st Century was to have three "Special Regions" distinct and seperate at the mouth of the Pearl River. It is bizarre to continue to have the HKSAR and SZSEZ sitting up against each other, both with separate systems. It makes perfect sense to unify these two zones as a practical step to harmonise the legala nd economic framework in the region. This would mean a loosening of law in SZ and undoubtedly a tightening in HK. I would love to see Macao included in this process, but must confess not to have taken very much notice of it or its laws, to be able to understand if this is practical or not.

No doubt about it, taking the two (hopefully three) cities and creating one unified Special Region with them (maybe with some other outlying areas) would help reduce the heat on the asset bubble by literally creating several times more space for investment than currently exists. It would also smooth out a number of anomalies and generally help the transitional process avoid certain "contradictions".

If one thing in the protests does bother me, it is the inevitable presence of overseas NGO's and several religious cults. I do find both of these disturbing and their activities quite self serving. I would be glad to see restrictions based on both categories; most definitely the removal from the SAR of overseas activists, for the general betterment of all.

 

[Brumby]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

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And this is another thing. Too many people who doesn't understand HK comment on how HKers are, and they've got it all wrong. How HKers behaved this time is beyond me too because I never thought this will be the outcome. No violence or destructive behaviours, although in a way I think how the police used tear gas unprovoked made the people even more determined not to act in such irrational behaviour. Another possibility I also think could be how the students began the protest by quiet sitting, which earned the admiration of the public, hence when they are attacked people went to protect them. Furthermore, another feeling I had was that most of the protesting participants are general public, or those who called for "peaceful OC" and thus neutral or not actually within the "more zealous" OC community, so they would behave with less zeal and more like normal folks. Also you have a lot of just regular families and elders and friends in this event who are clearly here to support the students, so this crowd is literally the public, not to mention they established slogans to remind themselves to not act unreasonably.

My initial perception was that the protest movement was focussed around a core group of OC participants while the general public was rather non participative from fear of more serious consequences. Based on your description, it sounds like the general public is coming on board. This is a significant change and rather encouraging as broad public support is critical and potentially a game changer. It looks like the over reaction of the police may have shifted public opinion.

 

[counterprime]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

Democracy shelters plutocracies from scrutiny by fooling the public with an illusion of choice.

China could relax more on individual freedoms, but democracy for 1.3+ billion people (starting with hk) would cripple the country with endless "debates", which is what western powers want.

It has nothing to do with freedom or human rights. Look at India, the west's latest democracy...

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

My initial perception was that the protest movement was focussed around a core group of OC participants while the general public was rather non participative from fear of more serious consequences. Based on your description, it sounds like the general public is coming on board. This is a significant change and rather encouraging as broad public support is critical and potentially a game changer. It looks like the over reaction of the police may have shifted public opinion.

Yea a lot of people came out afterwards to support the students after seeing how they're being handled, and these were non-OC members or would've been your normal folks.