Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

[Blackstone]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

First point, yes, I suspect that is definitely a goal. Personally, I don't view democracy as a threat so long as China retains a degree of veto power over HK, as long as HK is not used as a base for foreign agents to enter China, and so long as any HK government understands any attempt to publicly subvert the central government will be unacceptable.

Second point, yes, I suspect that is also a latent hope among many people globally. That said, there are a sheer number of ML Chinese in China and abroad who do believe in the particular cause of unity. I also suspect the old guard of the CCP from fifty years ago, despite their vast ideological differences to today's CCP, would mostly praise the changes that have occurred if they could see modern China, despite changes in ideology. At the end of the day, the goal is the strengthening of the country, rather than ideological fundamentalism. Pragmatism should outweigh ideology, whether it be ironbound adherence to democracy or maoism.

Well said, Blitzo, I tip my hat to you.

 

[Blackstone]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

My question to true believers like plawold is in lieu of any legal way to effect change, what else can Hong Kong citizens do to control their own laws and government? plawolf, are you categorically opposed to public protests or just in this case?

I'm all for right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances. However, in many parts of the United States, protesters forget the "peaceably" part and assemblies often turn into throngs of lawless looters, stealing from businesses and destroying private property. If violence is the currency of civil disobedience, then rule of law becomes rule of mobs.

No government can allow anarchy, not the US, not the EU, not India, and not China. The Hong Kong protestors should be given some lead way to express their opinion, but if violence and looting break out, then law enforcement agencies are fully justified to use appropriate force to restore order.

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

I'm all for right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances. However, in many parts of the United States, protesters forget the "peaceably" part and assemblies often turn into throngs of lawless looters, stealing from businesses and destroying private property. If violence is the currency of civil disobedience, then rule of law becomes rule of mobs.

No government can allow anarchy, not the US, not the EU, not India, and not China. The Hong Kong protestors should be given some lead way to express their opinion, but if violence and looting break out, then law enforcement agencies are fully justified to use appropriate force to restore order.

I understand, and honestly I've never felt so proud to be HKer. On the ground, no one's acting violently. Everyone's supporting each other. Schoolgirls showed up with their backpacks to drop off supplies for people. Some people showed up with drinks for others. Some sprayed mists of water for the resting occupants. My friend told me a few tried to steal from people, yet the citizens chased him down and handed him over to the police. And with 50,000 on the streets, not a single store was damaged or looted. No violent clashes with the police. People stood where they were and sang. They even had "mission statements/slogans/rules" to remind people to be civil and stay civil, to prove by example, that we are civilized, peaceful, and the good guys. Other things included stuffs like truck drivers brought cargoes of drinks for the protestors and gave them for free. Even some gangsters are helping out the people. I had never seen HK like this before. Even grandma and elderly showed up. One was even 80ish but eventually had to leave due to the substances inhaled from the tear gas.

Even some tourists or foreign nationals were on the ground supporting our efforts, and were helping locals out. Honestly I wanted to be there too, but I can't, so I'm going to organize booths to spread awareness back at home.

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

Well gentlemen, at the end of the day, you have proven that Sino Defense members are gentlemen, as well as scholars, and I am very proud of the concensus that we have reached in spite of our many and varied beliefs and ideologies. Air,,,, you have many friends and brothers on here, and because of your passion and concern for others, they have heard your concerns, and likely most of us feel the same way..... while in no way would I compromise my faith, or my ideals, I have learned a great deal from you gentlemen, and many of our "differences" are mostly semantics. Blessings and good fortune to each of you, thank you for listening to our brother, you indeed have "earned" my utmost respect.

Thank you for your kind words, always!

 

[antiterror13]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

HKers don't know how lucky they are .......

One simple question ... when HK was under British ... did HKers choose their leader? ... NO, the British Govt did that for over 150 years ....

 

[Blitzo]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

Air superiority, at this point do you think the protesters will stand down unless the central government effectively grants them independence? Even if universal sufferage is implemented, I doubt they'll be happy unless China has no influence over HK, probably even demand the PLA garrison (for all its symbolic worth) leaves as well.

Among other protesters, how far ahead have many of them planned?

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

Photos:

The schoolgirls who came to drop off items for the occupants before heading to school. People cheered for her.

the ~80 year old man who came to support the students

there were stories where taxi driver gave students a free ride home, or tell them to stay home because "they still have a future. let us the old folks take the full impact"

Cleaning up after ourselves

foreigners offering drinks for occupants

drinks donated by people

Self-Explanatory

sleeping on the streets

Picture of a 65 year old dad. His 30 year old son was arrested earlier at the civic square. when asked about him, the dad said "he's 30 years old now. he can take care of himself. im off to help the children"

when the police shows up, they all put their hands up and remain where they are. definition of peaceful protestors(hands up to represent unarmed)

Some officers "defected" or quit their job

blockading the road for the protestors with their trucks

officer telling his comrades to exercise restraint. you can see the protestors with their hands up to demonstrate they are peaceful

the gesture again

 

[airsuperiority]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

the first use of tear gas..

led to more people

This is why no stores are looted.

 

[Blitzo]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

So assuming neither side drastically escalates....

The question is, who's going to fold first? Just how much impact is their spread having on Hong Kong's major businesses and day to day operations (tourism, finance)?

If it's minimal, then I imagine the government will be pretty content just letting them do their thing for weeks, months, however long it takes till they burn themselves out.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Re: Chinese General news resource thread

I don't know what's the point noting how no store was damaged or set fire. Was that a knock on US protestors? If there were a bunch of known "Mainlander" owned stores, that might be a different story. Wait until time passes and nothing happens. That's the way it usually works. It's called escalation. China can sit this out and do nothing and these protestors will be doing all the damage and "set fire" to Hong Kong. It's exactly like how Hong Kongers shot themselves in the foot during the handover. They scared away money and Western expatriates.