Next Generation DDG and FFG thread (after 055, 052D, 054B)

[AndrewS]

It's not really an issue if we consider a ~10k displacement destroyer as part of a next generation fleet structure, rather than one that fits into the current generation. It's like the 054B, which makes a lot of sense if you look at it as something that fits into the current generation fleet structure. People are only disappointed because they thought it would be a part of the next generation.

Basically, if you consider a theoretical fleet structure of a 15+k displacement cruiser, a 9-10k displacement destroyer, and a sub-7k displacement frigate as the next generation fleet, then everything will make sense. The stretched 052D, the 054B, and an upgraded 055(A?) would then be transitional products.

The 12000-13000 tonne Type-055 just happens to be the first of the next generation Destroyer designs being produced around the world.

Given that this is continuing production with a third batch just ordered, where is the space in the fleet structure for a 9000-10000 tonne Destroyer?

 

[dingyibvs]

The 12000-13000 tonne Type-055 just happens to be the first of the next generation Destroyer designs being produced around the world.

Given that this is continuing production with a third batch just ordered, where is the space in the fleet structure for a 9000-10000 tonne Destroyer?

The generation after that, of course. If you want to call 055 the next generation, then the 9-10k to destroyer would fit in the next, next generation.

 

[latenlazy]

There’s a decent chance imo that in the next decade old 052D hulls get reassigned as FFGs, old 055 hulls get reassigned as DDGs, a new 20k tonne flagship cruiser class gets introduced, and we get a 052D successor in the 10k tonne class with more modernized systems to fill out DDG numbers beyond what old 055 hulls can cover.

 

[tamsen_ikard]

I am wondering if both the 10K ton DDG and 20K ton cruiser will both have the Zumwalt-style tumblehome design. What are compromises to have that kind of design compared to conventional designs. If its even worth pursuing those designs in the modern day when there are many ways to detect a ship including satellite imaging.

Extreme shaping to have less radar cross section may not be worth it.

 

[amchan]

I am wondering if both the 10K ton DDG and 20K ton cruiser will both have the Zumwalt-style tumblehome design. What are compromises to have that kind of design compared to conventional designs. If its even worth pursuing those designs in the modern day when there are many ways to detect a ship including satellite imaging.

Extreme shaping to have less radar cross section may not be worth it.

Satellites are never constantly going to be able to track ships at least in the near term. Stealth increases capability to operate near shore defenses and increases the effectiveness of ECM and countermeasures. In certain scenarios it may also allow a ship to better blend in with maritime clutter.

 

[jospence]

If we're discussing wartime movement, I think many people take satellite tracking as a guarantee when those will be some of the first targets for a prolonged large scale war. Satellites are incredibly vulnerable and both the U.S. and China have means to destroy them, both directly and by "accident".

The most important specifications for future warships will be data processing and power generation to fuel weaponry, propulsion, the data processing, and any other sensors. This is the basic reality of our digitized world, and will apply to every area of defense. People have mostly focused on aviation and the importance of WS-15 on J-20A and 3 engines for J-36, but the same exact thing will apply to frigates, destroyers, cruisers, and carriers. Yes for energy based weapons, but I would argue that upgrading the ability of ships to accurately target a large amount of targets at once is even more important.

 

[AndrewS]

There’s a decent chance imo that in the next decade old 052D hulls get reassigned as FFGs, old 055 hulls get reassigned as DDGs, a new 20k tonne flagship cruiser class gets introduced, and we get a 052D successor in the 10k tonne class with more modernized systems to fill out DDG numbers beyond what old 055 hulls can cover.

I don't think the definition of "generation" matters that much these days.

The Type-052D has 4 large AESA radar panels, UVLS and CEC.
Given its mission to provide long-range air-defence, it will never become obsolete.
So it should retain its Destroyer designation.

What is potentially changing is short-range defensive systems, such as lasers and railguns.

 

[latenlazy]

I don't think the definition of "generation" matters that much these days.

The Type-052D has 4 large AESA radar panels, UVLS and CEC.
Given its mission to provide long-range air-defence, it will never become obsolete.
So it should retain its Destroyer designation.

What is potentially changing is short-range defensive systems, such as lasers and railguns.

“Designation” here is just a way to describe role delegations on my part.

 

[Gloire_bb]

I don't think the definition of "generation" matters that much these days.

The Type-052D has 4 large AESA radar panels, UVLS and CEC.
Given its mission to provide long-range air-defence, it will never become obsolete.
So it should retain its Destroyer designation.

This is a bit too much. There's a good dozen ways how it can become obsolete in it's primary task, and frankly there are already signs how it's going to happen.
Furthermore, mission itself can grow obsolete, if it will stop being main venue of attack...

There’s a decent chance imo that in the next decade old 052D hulls get reassigned as FFGs, old 055 hulls get reassigned as DDGs, a new 20k tonne flagship cruiser class gets introduced, and we get a 052D successor in the 10k tonne class with more modernized systems to fill out DDG numbers beyond what old 055 hulls can cover.

Reclassification happens when ship is more suitable in a role different from the original one.
I honestly see very little chance how a cramped 052D, built almost to a power balance redline around powerful sensors and with destroyer weapon suit, can become a good FFG.
It's unironically a worse candidate for that than pre-aegis DDGs were.

 

[latenlazy]

Reclassification happens when ship is more suitable in a role different from the original one.
I honestly see very little chance how a cramped 052D, built almost to a power balance redline around powerful sensors and with destroyer weapon suit, can become a good FFG.
It's unironically a worse candidate for that than pre-aegis DDGs were.

Puzzling argument to make when the 052D is already being used for long haul deployments.