Next Generation DDG and FFG thread (after 055, 052D, 054B)

[Dante80]

Some pointers/speculation.

052D is a fine destroyer, which is why PLAN has it in serial production. They will keep building more of them in the forseeable future.
055 is not a 052D replacement.

Next generation destroyers are not coming out for a good while imo.
I think we will have more iterations for the 052 and 055 designs before that happens. Like 052E or 055A.
We might see some new designs to replace them coming out by the mid 30's.

Seeing a new cruiser type design come out would be a separate project imo. It would not replace 052 or 055, it would not be a Next Generation DDG. I can see such a project taking a slightly different mission than current combatants (focusing more on flagship duties, BMD or offensive fires).

 

[Gloire_bb]

Puzzling argument to make when the 052D is already being used for long haul deployments.

Any destroyer is, it is destroyer, not a battleship. Yet, at least.

It just comes at a higher price, yet isn't really fit to respond to contingencies shall they truly occur.
052D just isn't a type of ship for independent operations.

And the further to the right, the more both will be true. What you can and probably should do is consider them for long deployments in far stations during dusk of their career, Victorian style. As (old)destroyers in their primary role.

 

[Tomboy]

AFAIK, 052D is really at the limits of its hull, cramped space for crew, insufficient power generation etc. Continued production for this 5YP is likely in the sense that its the last batch built as a bridge to next generation destroyers which really should appear by this 5YP.

SOYO mentioned in one of his comments that 052D's power generation is in fact worse than Burke IIs making it extremely limited for future upgrades and expansions.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Seeing a new cruiser type design come out would be a separate project imo. It would not replace 052 or 055, it would not be a Next Generation DDG. I can see such a project taking a slightly different mission than current combatants (focusing more on flagship duties, BMD or offensive fires).

To be fair, "flagship duties, BMD and offensive fires" is exactly 055.
052D(L) is a perfect fleet 3rd rank ship of the line destroyer.

The most interesting pair is 054a(g) and 054b, where it isn't immediately obvious which one is more up to date; 054b is certainly higher tech, but is it more relevant?

 

[bsdnf]

I would say during the transition to the next generation of warships, the PLAN battleship will show a dual nature, serving both blue-water and coastal fleets.

The 54B and 52D destroyers are adequate for coastal operations, but in blue-water fleets they are almost considered lower-class vessels and used only as a makeshift solution.

055 is somewhere between old and new, still good enough as the core destroyer of the blue-water fleet

 

[jospence]

The Type 052D certainly isn't the greatest destroyer of any navy, but what it does possess is the quality of number. The U.S. didn't win the Pacific theater by simply building ships that were better than the Japanese, they won the Pacific in large part by building a large amount of ships that were good enough and could be replaced. War throughout history has shown the importance of having high end designs paired with a solid average design in great numbers. Not to mention that having a large amount of average ships allows you to build non-carrier task forces which combined have a good level of redundancy and higher VLS count than other navies they might be facing. The Type 052 will certainly need a new and bigger hull for the Type 052E, but China shouldn't repeat the mistakes of the US where they build only high end hardware and let costs get too high.

 

[AndrewS]

This is a bit too much. There's a good dozen ways how it can become obsolete in it's primary task, and frankly there are already signs how it's going to happen.

I don't see the signs that the Type-052D will become obsolete, but do expand.

Furthermore, mission itself can grow obsolete, if it will stop being main venue of attack...

And I highly doubt long-range air-defence will become an obsolete mission.

"Control" of the air is essential to projecting/denying power at long-distances.
At a minimum, you have to prevent ISR aircraft from detecting, tracking and shadowing your own ships.
And long-range strike has to be performed with missiles.

Reclassification happens when ship is more suitable in a role different from the original one.
I honestly see very little chance how a cramped 052D, built almost to a power balance redline around powerful sensors and with destroyer weapon suit, can become a good FFG.
It's unironically a worse candidate for that than pre-aegis DDGs were.

A Type-052D can operate as a good FFG.

It is faster than a FFG, and is better able to keep up with a carrier group.
Remember that Type-052Ds are kept close to home at high readiness, and tasked for a high-intensity conflict in the Western Pacific.
So crampedness is not really a factor.

Distant presence and escort missions are given to actual Frigates.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

According to SOYO on Weibo, the deck length and beam dimensions of the two vessels shown in the figure below are quite similar. However, due to the tumblehome hull design, the deck area of the deep-V hybrid hull form will be slightly smaller than that of the 055.

Therefore, the carrying capacity of the two hulls is roughly the same. If the so-called "deep-V hybrid hull form" is adopted for the next-generation (general-purporse or large) DDG class, and the main gun is replaced with the larger caliber, 155-mm naval gun, it is expected that the number of VLS cells will not exceed that of the 055.

Therefore, unless the hull is lengthened slightly, a 128-cell VLS configuration is likely out of reach (again).

 

[sunnymaxi]

According to SOYO on Weibo, the deck length and beam dimensions of the two vessels shown in the figure below are quite similar. However, due to the tumblehome hull design, the deck area of the deep-V hybrid hull form will be slightly smaller than that of the 055.

Therefore, the carrying capacity of the two hulls is roughly the same. If the so-called 'deep-V hybrid hull form' is adopted for the next-generation (general-purporse or large) DDG class, and the main gun is replaced with the larger caliber, 155-mm naval gun, it is expected that the number of VLS cells will not exceed that of the 055.

Therefore, unless the hull is lengthened slightly, a 128-cell VLS configuration is likely out of reach (again).

View attachment 170114

then what are the advantages of this new clean-sheet design instead of building more 055 ??

 

[Tomboy]

then what are the advantages of this new clean-sheet design instead of building more 055 ??

Stealthy platform, less hydrodynamic drag, completely clean sheet systems with IEP etc. The list goes on beyond this. VLS count isn't really a concern anyway, no reason to make a big deal out of it. 112 cells are more than enough for most things, in fact I expect it to shrink down to 96 cells if larger cells are used.