Z-10 thread

[Hendrik_2000]

once again loaded weight AND NOT EMPTY WEIGHT
AH 64 can carry 16 hellfire missile + 2 Rocket pod+ 1200 round of 30 mm ammo + 2 AAM total +fuel for 2.5 hr total weight around 2500 kg

When they design the Z10 they intentionally specify 6-7 ton loaded weight. That is the design requirement that China ask Kamov to do the preliminary design

AH 64 is 8-9 ton weight helicopter

It is completely different class altogether There is class even in the fighter jet JF 17 is light weight fighter J 10 is medium weight fighter J20 is heavy weight fighter. Are you saying they all belong to the same class?

How about tank China have 3 type medium one type 96, Heavy tank type 99, VT5 light weight tank they are designed that way

You don't just compare the empty weight You have to compare the range, weapon load, speed, effectiveness etc

 

[Iron Man]

once again loaded weight AND NOT EMPTY WEIGHT
AH 64 can carry 16 hellfire missile + 2 Rocket pod+ 1200 round of 30 mm ammo + 2 AAM total +fuel for 2.5 hr total weight around 2500 kg

When they design the Z10 they intentionally specify 6-7 ton loaded weight. That is the design requirement that China ask Kamov to do the preliminary design

AH 64 is 8-9 ton weight helicopter

It is completely different class altogether There is class even in the fighter jet JF 17 is light weight fighter J 10 is medium weight fighter J20 is heavy weight fighter. Are you saying they all belong to the same class?

How about tank China have 3 type medium one type 96, Heavy tank type 99, VT5 light weight tank they are designed that way

You don't just compare the empty weight You have to compare the range, weapon load, speed, effectiveness etc

It doesn't matter how much you scream, YOUR OWN SOURCE talks about a "6-ton" "medium" helicopter, which at 5.54t is clearly the Z-10's empty weight. Now you are trying to backtrack and claim "6-7 tons" loaded instead of "7 tons" loaded. And now AH-64 has magically transformed from 8 tons loaded to "8-9 tons" loaded, further spindoctoring the distance between these two helicopters. Like we can't all see immediately what you are trying to do in this thread. And including 16 Hellfires AND 2 rocket pods simultaneously is just bad math. Either that or deliberate dishonesty. You can have 16 Hellfires and no rocket pods, or 8 Hellfires and 2 rocket pods, or 0 Hellfires and 4 rocket pods, but you cannot have 16 Hellfires and 2 rocket pods.

And don't ludicrously try to bring in JF-17, J-10 and J-20, like their weight differences have ANYTHING to do with attack helicopter weight differences or categorizations. Or MBTs for that matter. You have a habit of uselessly throwing smoke into a discussion that you are not winning to try and muddy the waters.

 

[jobjed]

You have a habit of uselessly throwing smoke into a discussion that you are not winning to try and muddy the waters.

There's a term for that; it's

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.

 

[Iron Man]

There's a term for that; it's

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.

Exactly. Plus I don't know why he keeps foaming at the mouth over this. China's engine technology is quickly catching up but still not state of the art yet. WZ-9 for the Z-10, WS-10/AL-31F for the J-20, D-30K for the Y-20, are all underpowered compared to their Western counterparts, but I guess somehow if you yell loud enough then it will magically be different. WZ-16, WS-15, and WS-20 are all coming down the pipeline, but they are not here yet, and screaming about it won't change the reality of the situation.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Exactly. Plus I don't know why he keeps foaming at the mouth over this. China's engine technology is quickly catching up but still not state of the art yet. WZ-9 for the Z-10, WS-10/AL-31F for the J-20, D-30K for the Y-20, are all underpowered compared to their Western counterparts, but I guess somehow if you yell loud enough then it will magically be different. WZ-16, WS-15, and WS-20 are all coming down the pipeline, but they are not here yet, and screaming about it won't change the reality of the situation.

That is exactly your problem you been trying all this time to prove that China is inferior in paper comparison

But that is beside the point It doesn't mean anything German panther and tiger tank is superior to T34 Yet they lost the war What are you trying to prove paper machine or real engagement? We won't know until there is another war to prove which system is superior.

You are not a technical people So you don't know how the real engineering work and that applied to Jobjed as well He is just a student and has no real experience in real world

You start design with design requirement that is the standard practiced When you want to design 6 ton helicopter that is the starting point . You might not get always get 6 ton exact Because there is slide in due to many reason and you might end up with 7 ton It is the end result that count

I say AH 64 is 8 to 9 ton heli because normal operating weight is 8 ton but MTOW is 10 ton But MTOW is the maximum load that you try to avoid that is why I say 8-9 ton weight

You are the one that has no clue whatsoever about engineering and polluting this forum with your nonsense! about there is no weight class and everything is the same class.

WZ 16 is real it is in certification process now . It is not vaporware. Where did I say about WS 15 ?

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WZ16 is the Chinese designation of the Ardiden 3C engine, jointly developed (50/50) by Safran Helicopter Engines with AVIC Engine. The WZ16 is fitted in the Chinese AC352, jointly developed by Avic Helicopter with Airbus Helicopters.

It was ground tested in France in November 2013. The engine will be certified by EASA under the designation Ardiden 3C, and by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) under the designation WZ16.

The WZ16 is characterized by excellent reliability, low-cost maintenance (TBO 3,000 hours on entry-into-service and 5,000 hours once mature) and extremely low fuel consumption (at least ten per cent less than other engines in the same power range).

 

[Hendrik_2000]

There's a term for that; it's

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.

Where is my intellectural dishonesty show me You have no real experience in real world You still have a long way to go. Finish your college work for 10 years then we can talk
Show me where did I lie I provide all the reference.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

It doesn't matter how much you scream, YOUR OWN SOURCE talks about a "6-ton" "medium" helicopter, which at 5.54t is clearly the Z-10's empty weight. Now you are trying to backtrack and claim "6-7 tons" loaded instead of "7 tons" loaded. And now AH-64 has magically transformed from 8 tons loaded to "8-9 tons" loaded, further spindoctoring the distance between these two helicopters. Like we can't all see immediately what you are trying to do in this thread. And including 16 Hellfires AND 2 rocket pods simultaneously is just bad math. Either that or deliberate dishonesty. You can have 16 Hellfires and no rocket pods, or 8 Hellfires and 2 rocket pods, or 0 Hellfires and 4 rocket pods, but you cannot have 16 Hellfires and 2 rocket pods.

And don't ludicrously try to bring in JF-17, J-10 and J-20, like their weight differences have ANYTHING to do with attack helicopter weight differences or categorizations. Or MBTs for that matter. You have a habit of uselessly throwing smoke into a discussion that you are not winning to try and muddy the waters.

Now now you get mad because I refute your nonsense that there is no class in helicopter
Ofcourse there is class in helicopter Light weight is 3-4 ton eg Z9. medium weight 6-7 ton Z10, heavy weight Z18

Who is backtracking I say 6-7 ton is the weight of Z10 depending on the mission
7-8 ton the weight of AH64 depending on the mission
You are the one that has no clue of helicopter mission
They are not the same. I include the maximum configuration of AH 64 to show that the load in 2400 kg

I don't backtrack anything you are the one that insinuating that I back track. Ask first if you don't understand capicci!

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[Iron Man]

That is exactly your problem you been trying all this time to prove that China is inferior in paper comparison

But that is beside the point It doesn't mean anything German panther and tiger tank is superior to T34 Yet they lost the war What are you trying to prove paper machine or real engagement? We won't know until there is another war to prove which system is superior.

You are not a technical people So you don't know how the real engineering work and that applied to Jobjed as well He is just a student and has no real experience in real world

You start design with design requirement that is the standard practiced When you want to design 6 ton helicopter that is the starting point . You might not get always get 6 ton exact Because there is slide in due to many reason and you might end up with 7 ton It is the end result that count

I say AH 64 is 8 to 9 ton heli because normal operating weight is 8 ton but MTOW is 10 ton But MTOW is the maximum load that you try to avoid that is why I say 8-9 ton weight

You are the one that has no clue whatsoever about engineering and polluting this forum with your nonsense! about there is no weight class and everything is the same class.

WZ 16 is real it is in certification process now . It is not vaporware. Where did I say about WS 15 ?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

WZ16 is the Chinese designation of the Ardiden 3C engine, jointly developed (50/50) by Safran Helicopter Engines with AVIC Engine. The WZ16 is fitted in the Chinese AC352, jointly developed by Avic Helicopter with Airbus Helicopters.

It was ground tested in France in November 2013. The engine will be certified by EASA under the designation Ardiden 3C, and by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) under the designation WZ16.

The WZ16 is characterized by excellent reliability, low-cost maintenance (TBO 3,000 hours on entry-into-service and 5,000 hours once mature) and extremely low fuel consumption (at least ten per cent less than other engines in the same power range).

All that I see here is a wall of text basically saying "bla bla bla you're not an engineer therefore I'm right bla bla bla". Yes, you're the same "engineer" that gave me a bunch of bullshit numbers and then pulled out the definition of "hypothesis" to prove that you were right all along. LOLOLOLOL

I'm not EVER trying to prove on SDF that "China is inferior" in the same way that you are always trying to "prove" that China is superior. You mistake my motivations. By nature I am skeptical and would like to see evidence before rejecting a null hypothesis. Your problem is that your "null" hypothesis is that Chinese military is super-duper awesome until proven otherwise, and even when proven otherwise, Chinese military is still super-duper awesome. It is a plain fact to everybody (who is not a fanboi) that the Z-10 is underpowered for its dry weight compared to similarly-sized helos like the AH-64 and Rooivalk. This is ok for most of us, especially since WZ-16 is (probably) on its way in, but because you are a fanboi, this is clearly NOT ok for you. LOL

 

[Iron Man]

Now now you get mad because I refute your nonsense that there is no class in helicopter
Ofcourse there is class in helicopter Light weight is 3-4 ton eg Z9. medium weight 6-7 ton Z10, heavy weight Z18

Who is backtracking I say 6-7 ton is the weight of Z10 depending on the mission
7-8 ton the weight of AH64 depending on the mission
You are the one that has no clue of helicopter mission
They are not the same. I include the maximum configuration of AH 64 to show that the load in 2400 kg

I don't backtrack anything you are the one that insinuating that I back track. Ask first if you don't understand capicci!

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Sorry but this is your own made up crap that you are trying to pass off as fact. Please link to a source that lists these numbers as designating any kind of helicopter weight category. Go ahead.

For that AH-64 graphic, go ahead and tell me which one of those configurations include 16 Hellfires and 2 rocket pods? I think it's time for you to get a prescription for reading glasses, tough guy.

 

[jobjed]

Where is my intellectural dishonesty show me

Right here:

You have no real experience in real world You still have a long way to go. Finish your college work for 10 years then we can talk

This is a fallacy called

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. Usage of a fallacy, as delineated in the

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on intellectual dishonesty, is the very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

And I don't link these articles for shits and giggles, I'd advise you to actually read and understand them.

I also never called you 'dishonest', only intellectually dishonest. They are different concepts.


As for your entire argument with Iron Man, I'm siding with you in that the Z-10 likely belongs in a lower weight class to the Apache. I have serious doubts about the 5t empty weight statistic given for the Z-10 considering it comes from a Sina article which also claimed the Z-10's design incorporated imported Russian ejection seats. The Z-10 looks to be lighter than the Apache but there hasn't been any concrete data released by the PLA.