Z-10 thread

[plawolf]

Bascially, the Chinese gave Kamov a set of key performance parameters like payload, range, speed etc, and Kamov came up with an optimised external shape, and suggested weight, dimensions and maybe internal weight distribution to meet the performance requirements set by the PLA.

All of the internal design work was done by the Chinese.

Given the typical cruise and max speed of attack helicopters, external shaping matters about as much to the performance of attack helicopters as they do to regular cars. Yes, a more streamlined and optimised shape will boost performance, but the process in design and especially manufacturing to achieve that shaping is very difficult. That's why the helicopters Kamov designed for the Russians don't have anything like the sleek likes of the Z10. Its one thing to be able to come up with a theoretical 'perfect' shaped and balanced object, it's an order of magnitude more difficult to turn that into a real product.

I wouldn't even say the Z10 has Kamov genes, as that implies the Z10 follows Kamov design philosophy and/or tradition, which it clearly doesn't, and is a far far deeper level on involvement than Kamov actually participated in.

 

[plawolf]

Now this is a news what do you know this should silence all those Z10 critic that Z10 is underpower. From Henri K

AVIC Helicopter confirms today in an article that the Z-10K beat the Ka-52, Mi-28 and Mi-35 in the Aviadarts 2017 tournament.

I would not draw such a conclusion since Aviadarts had nothing to do with payload.

Hell, even drawing conclusions about weapon systems from that result would be very questionable as the whole point of Aciadarts was about eliminating the technology factor as much as possible to test purely pilot skill.

It is extremely encouraging that Z10 pilots would win that competition given the relative short time they had been flying Z10s.

Although the sleeker shaping of the Z10 might have helped by giving the Z10 pilots a smoother ride compared to the more lumpy Russian birds. Chinese rockets fight also have been better than their Russian counterparts', so again I would advise caution before drawing too firm a
conclusion form the result.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

I would not draw such a conclusion since Aviadarts had nothing to do with payload.

Hell, even drawing conclusions about weapon systems from that result would be very questionable as the whole point of Aciadarts was about eliminating the technology factor as much as possible to test purely pilot skill.

It is extremely encouraging that Z10 pilots would win that competition given the relative short time they had been flying Z10s.

Although the sleeker shaping of the Z10 might have helped by giving the Z10 pilots a smoother ride compared to the more lumpy Russian birds. Chinese rockets fight also have been better than their Russian counterparts', so again I would advise caution before drawing too firm a
conclusion form the result.

Power has never been issue with Z 10 . A lot of critic compare it to AH 64 which is wrong since Z10 is only medium weight helicopter and should not be compare to AH 64 which is heavy weight attack helicopter. During development it was slimmed down and eliminate many extra to conform with WZ9 power output I see nothing wrong with that.

It can carry more load once it got better engine like WZ 16 that will be certified hopefully this year

We see it doing vertical loop in one of the show. Now the Avidart confirm the viability of Z10

 

[Figaro]

Z-10 (80th Group Army)

China Military Online

 

[Figaro]

2 Z-10s with serials

 

[Iron Man]

Power has never been issue with Z 10 . A lot of critic compare it to AH 64 which is wrong since Z10 is only medium weight helicopter and should not be compare to AH 64 which is heavy weight attack helicopter. During development it was slimmed down and eliminate many extra to conform with WZ9 power output I see nothing wrong with that.

It can carry more load once it got better engine like WZ 16 that will be certified hopefully this year

We see it doing vertical loop in one of the show. Now the Avidart confirm the viability of Z10

Your post is not actually a response to his post saying that winning Aviadarts does not have to do with payload. Even if the Z-10 is "viable" doesn't mean it's not underpowered. And your distinction between "heavy weight" AH-64 and "medium weight" Z-10 is just plain wrong given that the empty weight of AH-64 is 5,200kg, which is LESS than the empty weight of the Z-10 at 5,500kg, with AH-64's MTOW of 10,400kg compared to an unknown MTOW of the Z-10, which is presumably much less because each of its 1,000kW WZ-9 engines are weaker than the 1,400kW T700 engines of the AH-64, for a total of 800kW less power than the AH-64.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Your post is not actually a response to his post saying that winning Aviadarts does not have to do with payload. Even if the Z-10 is "viable" doesn't mean it's not underpowered. And your distinction between "heavy weight" AH-64 and "medium weight" Z-10 is just plain wrong given that the empty weight of AH-64 is 5,200kg, which is LESS than the empty weight of the Z-10 at 5,500kg, with AH-64's MTOW of 10,400kg compared to an unknown MTOW of the Z-10, which is presumably much less because each of its 1,000kW WZ-9 engines are weaker than the 1,400kW T700 engines of the AH-64, for a total of 800kW less power than the AH-64.

I go be loaded weight Z 10 loaded weight is 7000 kg and AH 64 is 8000 kg That is is the difference between heavy weight and mid weight helicopter Empty eight is meaningless
I am not here to compare it with AH64 China will get bigger engine in the future

 

[Iron Man]

I go be loaded weight Z 10 loaded weight is 7000 kg and AH 64 is 8000 kg That is is the difference between heavy weight and mid weight helicopter Empty eight is meaningless

That is difference between heavy weight and mid weight helicopter in your universe only, categories which you have obviously and arbitrarily made up for the purpose of trying to put these helicopters into different categories thereby legitimizing a lower weight for the Z-10. Not only that, the "7,000kg" is speculative whereas the empty weights are not. They are the SAME class of helicopter no matter how you try to spindoctor the numbers here. It's not like people are stupid and can't see the games that you're trying to play with words and numbers here.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

That is difference between heavy weight and mid weight helicopter in your universe only, categories which you have obviously and arbitrarily made up for the purpose of trying to put these helicopters into different categories thereby legitimizing a lower weight for the Z-10. Not only that, the "7,000kg" is speculative whereas the empty weights are not. They are the SAME class of helicopter no matter how you try to spindoctor the numbers here. It's not like people are stupid and can't see the games that you're trying to play with words and numbers here.

No they are not Z 10 was design as mid weight helicopter to begin with with loaded weight of 7000 Kg They might convert it to heavy weight as more powerful engine is available
Which they might get it this year when WZ 16 is certified or version of WZ9C!
It was always the plan. You can call it whatever you want The main thing is they are produced inlarge number and will be retrofit as bigger engine is available.
I don't see why the loaded weight is speculative You can estimate it 2 man=200kg weapon =8XHJ9=350kg +rocket say=300kg + +ammunition =150kg +fuel=400kg

The Armed Helicopter Developmental Work Team (武装直升机开发工作小组) was formed to develop a new medium helicopter design, as opposed to basing the new design on the light helicopters then in service. The 602nd and 608th Research Institutes started development of the 6-ton class China Medium Helicopter (CHM) program

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in 1994. A secret contract was signed with the

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design bureau of Russia to design and verify the helicopter airframe and propulsion.

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The program was promoted as a civilian project, and was able to secure significant Western technical assistance, such as from

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(rotor installation design consultancy),

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Canada (PT6C turboshaft engine) and

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(transmission).

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The Chinese concentrated on areas where it could not obtain foreign help.

 

[Iron Man]

No they are not Z 10 was design as mid weight helicopter to begin with with loaded weight of 7000 Kg They might convert it to heavy weight as more powerful engine is available
Which they might get it this year when WZ 16 is certified or version of WZ9C!
It was always the plan. You can call it whatever you want The main thing is they are produced inlarge number and will be retrofit as bigger engine is available.
I don't see why the loaded weight is speculative You can estimate it 2 man=200kg weapon =8XHJ9=350kg +rocket say=300kg + +ammunition =150kg +fuel=400kg

The Armed Helicopter Developmental Work Team (武装直升机开发工作小组) was formed to develop a new medium helicopter design, as opposed to basing the new design on the light helicopters then in service. The 602nd and 608th Research Institutes started development of the 6-ton class China Medium Helicopter (CHM) program

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in 1994. A secret contract was signed with the

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design bureau of Russia to design and verify the helicopter airframe and propulsion.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The program was promoted as a civilian project, and was able to secure significant Western technical assistance, such as from

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

(rotor installation design consultancy),

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Canada (PT6C turboshaft engine) and

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(transmission).

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The Chinese concentrated on areas where it could not obtain foreign help.

There is no distinct and formal classification of attack helicopters into "light", "medium", and "heavy". If that source considers the "6-ton" Z-10 (actually only 5.54 tons) to be "medium", then clearly it would also consider both the AH-64 and the Rooivalk to be "medium" as well.

Here is a list of attack helos. If you want to group them into "light", "medium", and "heavy", an obvious split would be this:
Mangusta: 2.5t
AH-1J: 3.0t
HAL LCH: 3.1t
Tiger: 3.1t

AH-64: 5.2t
WZ-10: 5.5t
Rooivalk: 5.7t

Ka-50: 7.7t
Mi-28: 7.9t
Mi-24: 8.5t