Yuan Class AIP & Kilo Submarine Thread


W20

Junior Member
Registered Member
"I would guess it is lithium iron phosphate battery"

Exactly

"China has a big production capacity meaning experience. It is already about 170 WH/Kg today"

Wooow

170
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
If lithium batteries are used, I would guess it is lithium iron phosphate battery (LFP). It is safe and mature technology, and China has a big production capacity meaning experience. It is already about 170 WH/Kg today. Going for Li-ion is suicidal IMO.

The thing is technology is moving so fast, that if you implement something now that you thought is already advanced, it may turn out to be obsolete tomorrow.

But right now its a good time to test different options. Li-ion can potentially revolutionize how we think of conventional submarines.

While this belongs to another thread, I also think Thorium reactors that don't use steam and water also has the potential to revolutionize the use of nuclear energy onboard ships including carriers and submarines.

Lots of interesting things happening.
 

Totoro

Captain
VIP Professional
So basically we have no way of knowing how many 039 subs have been launched in the last 9 years or so?
Variants wise, there have been 4 different variants observed since then, but it doesn't sound likely there was just one boat made of each of those variants.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
So basically we have no way of knowing how many 039 subs have been launched in the last 9 years or so?
Variants wise, there have been 4 different variants observed since then, but it doesn't sound likely there was just one boat made of each of those variants.

Chinese wiki puts at 19, with the 19th having sea trials, the 19th likely to be the one with the A26 style sail.

There should be a 20th since its confirmed photographically, that a 039A was launched in Jiangnan just recently.
 

Totoro

Captain
VIP Professional
Chinese wiki doesn't use sources for that number of theirs, 19 Yuan subs. Only a few of the 19 entries have some sources cited, and most of those sources are, as far as I can tell, not terribly clear about the fact a new submarine joined the force. They're more mentions of such and such serial number of a new submarine used.

Of course, this paper linked a few posts above doesn't provide sources either. Both the paper and Chinese wiki offer years of new boats put into service up to the year 2013 or so. After that, years are not existent. So it must be that there's no way of tracking when a new boat was launched. The Chinese Wiki list may be correct, but it also may either underestimate or overestimate the sub count. There's no way of telling.

The paper's list seems like it could be the very bottom projection of numbers, since it bases it's 4 subs after the year 2013 on the number of different observed modifications of various yuan subs. But who's to say that since 2013, there haven't been far more than just 1 sub per each modification put into service?

Indeed, if there were on average of 2 yuan subs launched from the year 2009 to 2013, would it not be plausible that a similar tempo was kept up until now? If so, that'd mean not just 4 additional subs as per the paper, or not just 6 additional subs as per chinese wiki, but potentially as many as 15+ additional subs up until today.

Of course, it may also be that the procurement rate slowed down. Or perhaps that there was was a period, similar to one during the transition from Song to Yuan, where 2 years passed without a single submarine launched.

At any rate, I don't think the chinese wiki or this paper really enables us to make a precise educated guess about the actual number.
It could be just 4-5 additional subs from 2013 onward. Or it could be 15 or more. Or any other number in between.
 

Lethe

Senior Member
The paper's list seems like it could be the very bottom projection of numbers, since it bases it's 4 subs after the year 2013 on the number of different observed modifications of various yuan subs.

The paper doesn't even try to count the number of units in service, that's what the extra spaces are for: "at least one but we have no idea how many more."

Most public US DoD or USN figures list China as operating 46 or 47 SSKs as of 2020 which can serve as a reasonable lower bound. With five 035Bs and a dozen Kilos, that leaves 30 039 Song/Yuan boats.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
"He describes this submarine as possibly or speculatively using lithium ion batteries"

I've read the same rumor here and there

The big question is that when we talk about lithium batteries we can be talking about batteries with a density of 200-260 watt hours / kilo (example: the batteries of Tesla cars) ...

Or on the other hand we may be talking about safer batteries suitable for a Submarine and about 100 Watt hours / kilo, which I suspect could be the case for the last three Japanese submarines or not, it is difficult to know; but the question of the safety or rather dangerousness of higher density Lithium batteries is a real problem in a submarine

BUT

But within two years, in 2023, there will be 200 Watt-hour/kg sodium batteries.

This is incredible, and could be a revolution in the diesel-electric submarine.

I don't know

The amazing thing about this story is that Captain Nemo's Submarine dreamed up by Jules Verne ... carried ...

Sodium Batteries

I’m not an expert in Chemistry but doesn’t sodium react explosively to water? Do we know that Sodium Ion batteries are safe? If not I’m not sure if it’s wise to put them in an submersible vessel?
 

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