Why "the West" gets China wrong

Status
Not open for further replies.

solarz

Brigadier
This is an interesting read. BTW, I'd suggest no one comment on this article since it deals with no-no subjects that are not to be discussed in this forum.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



Cyber-snooping only one side of the information war

by Gregory Clark

Jun 20, 2013

Revelations of the U.S. National Security Agency’s large-scale interception of Internet and telephone connections (PRISM) should not have come as any surprise. Estimates of NSA’s secret budget of at least $10 billion should have told us long ago it was involved in some sophisticated spying activities.

We knew some time ago about ECHELON — the global network linking the Anglo-Saxon nations in a decoding operation aimed at the secret diplomatic and other communications of other nations, including friends. That has been going on for more than 40 years now and many of those targeted — Japan included — have yet to realize how their codes can be penetrated.

But that is only one side of the information war. Efforts to find out what we are thinking are matched by efforts to tell us what we should be thinking. Programs to disseminate black or gray information have been around for a long time. Bogus news agencies (for much of the Vietnam War the British were running one called Forum Features), planted stories, biased or bought correspondents, academics and other pundits have combined to spread distorted information about imagined enemies.

The former Soviet Union used to be a favorite target. Recently China has come back into the limelight.

With India now being courted as a potential member of an anti-China club we are hearing much about China’s alleged 1962 border attack on India. Yes, there was a brief military action. The only problem with the black-information version is that it was India, not China, that did the attacking.

I was working in Canberra’s China section at the time and had access to all the relevant maps and documents. It was clear that the very limited Chinese attack had followed some very foolish Indian military incursions across a very generous (to India) line of control that China was scrupulously observing prior to a final border agreement (all this has been confirmed in former London Times New Delhi correspondent Neville Maxwell’s excellent book “India’s China War”). But that did not stop Canberra and others setting out to condemn China’s “aggression.” The black-information people have been hammering that line ever since.

That particular black-information success, which was to lead to the myth of China’s inherent aggressiveness, in turn led to the U.S./Australian decision to intervene in Vietnam to stop Chinese “aggressive expansionism.” A lot of people were to die as a result.

But the granddaddy of all the anti-China black-information operations has to be the false version of the June 4, 1989, Tiananmen Square incident. For some years this version had us believe that hundreds, if not thousands, of democracy-seeking Chinese students were mowed down with machine guns in the square by a brutal regime.

When some foreign witnesses emerged to say they were in the square all that night and saw nothing, the story was changed to a massacre of students near the square.

Meanwhile, the true story, found in the messages from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing at the time and available on the Internet, is very different. This says that Beijing, having tolerated the student takeover of its iconic square for six weeks, had finally tried to send in unarmed or lightly armed troops to remove the remaining students peacefully, only to be rebuffed by angry anti-regime crowds that had built up on the roads leading to the square.

When armed troops were then sent in, the crowds attacked with firebombs incinerating many in their vehicles. Some rogue units then went on a rampage and the alleged “massacre” was in fact the revenge wreaked by those units on the citizen and student crowds still trying to block their entrance.

So whence the machine gun massacre story? Fortunately the former Washington Post correspondent in Beijing at the time, Jay Williams, has done the research, published in the Columbia Journalism Review, pinpointing its origins to a full-page article in a pro-British Hong Kong newspaper written by an alleged student participant. Front-paged by an unsuspecting New York Times, the “machine gun massacre” story rapidly criss-crossed the globe to become accepted as fact. An attempt by the New York Times reporter on the scene, Nicholas Kristof, to tone down the distortions was relegated to Page 13. Meanwhile the alleged “student participant” promptly disappeared.

As the Williams report points out, the irony in all this is that the world media managed to miss the much larger story — namely a mass revolt by citizens angered by decades of the Cultural Revolution and other ideological insanities still not fully corrected by the reformist Deng Xiaoping regime. This in turn explains why Beijing today is so anxious to have the world forget about the incident. No self-respecting communist regime can admit it was attacked by its citizens. But this then allows the black-information people to use Beijing’s silence as proof it lacks repentance for the massacre.

These people have since gone on to an even greater heights with the myth of Iraq weapons of mass destruction. They show little repentance for the death and misery caused by that success.

They are now involved in giving us the one-sided, gray-information version of the Japan-China confrontation over the Senkaku Islands. Here the key issue surely is Beijing’s anger over Tokyo’s denial of a verbal 1972 agreement to shelve the island ownership issue. Instead, we are told it is more proof of the Chinese expansionism that began with India in 1962.

We are told much about Beijing’s expansionist ambitions in the South China Sea. But it was the Republic of China regime, later exiled to Taiwan, that first made these claims, and they were reinforced by none other than Tokyo itself in its 1952 peace treaty with the ROC when it granted ownership of the two main island groups there, the Spratleys and the Paracels, to that regime.

Until very recently Taiwan showed much more zeal than Beijing in seeking to pressure Japan over the Senkakus; it was Taiwan in 1971 that successfully lobbied the U.S. to exclude the Senkakus from the Okinawan territories whose sovereignty was to be returned to Japan (the U.S. agreed only to the return of administrative control).

Beijing’s very limited revival of some other ROC territorial claims, toward India for example, are also portrayed as new Beijing expansionism. So the game goes on.

We still live in a world still highly vulnerable to black- and gray-information activities. It is this, far more than NSA snooping, that demands attention.

+100000000000

At the risk of running off topic, here's another example:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


The most interesting part about that article isn't that the US does this, but how skilled and sophisticated their information ops are. China needs to learn this, if only to even the playing field.
 
Last edited:
To be honest, the only thing I have to say these days would be that Tiananmen happened, but that's the end of my sentence. There are too many conflicting claims, with sufficient evidence from both sides that blame the other side which can validate into their own lines of logic which would certainly make sense in their own ways. That being said, we can only agree that students and peaceful innocent protestors did die, government troops did laid down lethal fire..but the order of events that happened, what really happened, and how things unfurled was where all sensible critical minds should cease to take the next step. Either way, students who believed in the future freedom of China did die, and it was a shame. Nevertheless it changed history, and taught everyone very valuable lessons. No one can deny students were killed by troops, but no one should say anything of what happened unless that individual knew the truth..and certainly only a few would know the whole truth. Treat it like Roswell (as in how many people knew the truth) and you would be on safer grounds from making a mistaking claim.

As for the purpose of this thread, I noticed a major issue with people like us; we tend to complicate things in an attempt to explain why the outside world dislike China. Why I say that is because recently I read some sentiments of fellow Asians from another community, and their thoughts shredded light to remind me of their perceptions which almost seemed too fresh for me to hear of since a long time ago. The other day I was reading something off Asianfanatics forum about how South Koreans and Japanese perceived Chinese. For those who don't know, Asianfanatics is an online forum community for younger age groups who endorse Asian stuffs (most likely Asians themselves) to talk about shiny stuffs and colorful things in life, particularly from popular cultural stuffs like music to other lifestyles stuff. In other words, it's a relaxing environment without no politics present, which is a good thing. In the forum, the question was how South Koreans perceived Chinese, although it very quickly became an exchange of how various groups of Asians see mainland Chinese overall. Most of them expressed their less favorable attitude towards mainland Chinese, although towards Singaporean, Taiwanese, and HKers it's fine. They went on in to discuss about why(so they're also intrigued amongst themselves to understand why), and in the end it seemed they sort of agreed it's a built-in stereotype previously from the past towards mainland China, in regards to wealth, culture, and various things. In their words, although China is becoming rich very quickly, it is still not a first-world state, not completely modernized, cultured/educated, and all the stuffs the free world has, democracy, human rights, are what China lacks. China is still seen as behind the Asian Tigers in terms of overall development, despite China catching up.


People seem to think that Hong Kong people are "better" than people in China? - AsianFanatics Forum


You may go like "well then they're just young stupid generation who knew nothing about politics", which I'd agree is true, and hence the beauty of it. By not knowing so much, they spoke of a voice representing the mass public (not people like us, who are semi-informed but also same time biased by our political stances), so they represent probably a better picture and more accurate thought and demographics of sentiment than our forum community(we have an unusually high amount of pro-Chinese for a Western forum)
Many of their forum members pointed to stereotype, and after observing their simple argument and comparing to ours, I felt their much-simple explanation fulled the criteria of adequacy much better than we do. In other words, I think we often over-analyzed.

Anyways I linked it for you guys to check it out. I hope you guys don't blaze from reading their posts, then decided to go in to participate and defend with our politics and then stir the "harmony" of that forum by attempting to bring in your thoughts to their community to "educate".

Just a random post I'm quoting that I think showed some insights somewhere.

Its all just perceptions. To be honest though, HK people might be just as rude, but they do have a bit better common sense.

When the HK Disney opened back in 2004-5ish? There were reports of Mainland tourists letting their kids take a dump and piss on the side of the streets, in sinks, etc.

In my opinion, these are the kind of major things that make them look bad.

I'm not suggesting people from Shanghai or Beijing would do this kind of stuff, but there's alot of people in China who still don't have that kind of "urban" (for lack of a better word) common sense.

Other factors would be China's status as a communist country, its really only recently booming economy; it takes a while to get used to. Back in the 80s, they had a thing in America called "Japan Bashing." The Japanese auto and electronics industry were outcompeting American firms, people were losing jobs, so they bring on the hate. Now 20-30 years later, Japan is an accepted part of the "first world" community. China just really started growing the last decade; it will take another decade at least for its image to improve.

I think also maybe a reason why the Japanese got accepted quicker than China is because at least their people don't really doing embarrassing stuffs(better taught in mannerisms?) I think wealth is one thing, but actions, etiquette, and gestures are also part of first impression. In other words, forget about thinking how China is blah blah blah, like your basic simple rule of thumb when meeting people initially --- first impression counts the most.

I also talked to a very mannered and educated man today regarding why tainted milk powder appeared in China. He gave me some really fair and insightful analysis, particularly from business perspective.

He referred it in this method. "pretend you're the manager of a manufacturing plant. if upper management called in and told u to dump 50 tonnes of tainted milk powder, what would you do? you are most likely to do so. however in china, many people came out of poverty just recently, and their lack of education and awareness of responsibilities would lead them to see this chunk of stocks as "don't waste it. is still money. can profit off by selling to someone else". they would then sell it off, then someone else may not be aware of the problems, or unable to perceive how bad things could be." Meanwhile, some agents may attempt to profit by scamming/misleading farmers(or other groups who do not possess sufficient education or knowledge) to buy modification drugs to "enhance" their crops. these farmers may not know anything and fall trap, thus in the end leading to those poisonous watermelons or tainted milk powder or whatever. from business perspective it makes sense in the sense that how a problem occurring somewhere in the business chain can lead to catastrophic disasters. In other words he's citing the concept of 暴富. people getting rich too quickly, yet their mannerisms, lifestyles, education, etc etc. He even mentioned examples of farmers who became rich so quick, they had no idea of what to do with their money, and then spent it all. Despite so, he said there are countless other reasons and explanations for other things and phenomenon, and not all are universal and applicable for every case.
 
Last edited:

solarz

Brigadier
In the forum, the question was how South Koreans perceived Chinese, although it very quickly became an exchange of how various groups of Asians see mainland Chinese overall. Most of them expressed their less favorable attitude towards mainland Chinese, although towards Singaporean, Taiwanese, and HKers it's fine. They went on in to discuss about why(so they're also intrigued amongst themselves to understand why), and in the end it seemed they sort of agreed it's a built-in stereotype previously from the past towards mainland China, in regards to wealth, culture, and various things. In their words, although China is becoming rich very quickly, it is still not a first-world state, not completely modernized, cultured/educated, and all the stuffs the free world has, democracy, human rights, are what China lacks. China is still seen as behind the Asian Tigers in terms of overall development, despite China catching up.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

You may go like "well then they're just young stupid generation who knew nothing about politics", which I'd agree is true, and hence the beauty of it. By not knowing so much, they spoke of a voice representing the mass public (not people like us, who are semi-informed but also same time biased by our political stances), so they represent probably a better picture and more accurate thought and demographics of sentiment than our forum community(we have an unusually high amount of pro-Chinese for a Western forum)
Many of their forum members pointed to stereotype, and after observing their simple argument and comparing to ours, I felt their much-simple explanation fulled the criteria of adequacy much better than we do. In other words, I think we often over-analyzed.

Anyways I linked it for you guys to check it out. I hope you guys don't blaze from reading their posts, then decided to go in to participate and defend with our politics and then stir the "harmony" of that forum by attempting to bring in your thoughts to their community to "educate".

Actually, I have a much simpler explanation for it. What is the one defining difference between Hongkong, Singapore, and Taiwan vs Mainland China?

The old battle line drawn by the Cold War, of course.

Like it or not, the old Cold War stereotypes are still very much alive.
 
Actually, I have a much simpler explanation for it. What is the one defining difference between Hongkong, Singapore, and Taiwan vs Mainland China?

The old battle line drawn by the Cold War, of course.

Like it or not, the old Cold War stereotypes are still very much alive.


That might be possible for the West, especially the older generation. For the younger generation and for Asians, that's probably less of a case.
 

solarz

Brigadier
That might be possible for the West, especially the older generation. For the younger generation and for Asians, that's probably less of a case.

Not at all.

Remember that the younger generation was raised by the generation that grew up during the Cold War. As such, they grew up with a negative perception of Mainland China, and this negative perception is continuously reinforced by their media, which are run by folks who definitely remember the Cold War.
 
Not at all.

Remember that the younger generation was raised by the generation that grew up during the Cold War. As such, they grew up with a negative perception of Mainland China, and this negative perception is continuously reinforced by their media, which are run by folks who definitely remember the Cold War.

Look maybe it's true that for the older generations they had some Cold War mentality in their lifetime, but you really shouldn't think that modern generation's negative perception of China = Cold War mentality. Even the oldest Gen Y would be only 11 years old when the Iron Curtain came down, which leaves their entire adolescence to learn from school, experience it on their own in campus, and early years working and raising their family in a Cold War free environment and exposure to the world. It's most likely that they didn't experience much of China anyways, and professors and teachers still taught them of Communist China, but definitely none of those mean much because their lives didn't grow up under the shadow of living in a Cold War environment. I myself grew up just in time of one year before the Tiananmen event, and then had only 2 more years of Cold War which I won't remember a slightest bit as I was still too young to remember anything, and before I knew it, it's gone. And certainly even kids who are born earlier than me and were 6-7, or even 11, won't have cared or given a single bit about Communist China in their toddler and preteen years. That said, the new generation doesn't think or continue to live in a Cold War mentality. No one even puts these 2 words next to each other these days, and the last time that happened, it was from Black Ops.

And if Cold War mentality of China you mean green uniform armed police, corrupted bureaucracy with human rights violations and Communist regimes, then yes many do still think that way. However, other than the green uniforms, everything else remained factual of modern day China. Maybe more Chinese are wealthier off now, and Shanghai looks better, but the last thing on people's minds of impressions of others would be wealth (unless we're talking about Wall Street bankers, stockholders AIG execs)
The only possible Cold War mentality I could imagine would be aggressive China, but that's just because of the recent rise of China and territorial disputes, not the Red scare ideology of Communist China seeking to spread Maoism as it was prevalent in Cold War.

In fact to prove a point, you can even click into that link and use the find function (ctrl+f) to look for the term "cold war" to see how many times it's been mentioned in that forum.
 
Last edited:

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Well when you hear Westerners say Chinese are racist, you know where that comes from? It stems from racist comments made by Japanese politicians and then was transferred to Koreans because of all the negative news of Korean shops owners in African-American neighborhoods in the US. Now it's been switched over to the Chinese. Anything to divert attention away from accusations of racism being focused on themselves. It's just like how you see Western colonialism being used by Westerners to scare Africans from doing business with China.

I was laughing when I read a story a while ago where Japanese and Koreans were worried that US tensions with China were going to have a negative impact on them. Did they think about that with the incidents above that literally made Westerners think Asians are worst racists than they are despite history? Every time there's a racist incident committed by someone who is Caucasian that occurs in the US, just turn on a radio talk show station and you will hear someone try to distract and mention how Asians are more racist even though Asians had no part in the incident. Same thing going on here when you see Asian ethnicities or sub identities trying transfer their ugly character onto another.

I even read someone comment during the Connecticut school shooting story earlier in the year that it was worse over in China. Now why would someone make such a comment that had nothing to do or help with this incident during this time? It's like what I mention above. There are people so concerned about their image more than anything that in order to make themselves feel better they have to make someone else out to be worse so they don't do or have to do anything with their own problems and faults.
 
Last edited:

Zool

Junior Member
Some of how the "West" get's China wrong has been recently exemplified in the 'Japan's military build-up' thread. The short explanation is a lack of Experience & Education. I will explain and attempt to be brief...

China views Japan as a threat. Simple as that. Why?

Japan has begun a build-up of it's offensive military capabilities (Carrier's being built for the first time since WWII but classified as Destroyer's), see's it's Political Leadership and Policy Making tilt further and further to the hawkish right, and all but deny, almost to the point of revisionist history (re Japanese History Text Books in schools), it's Wartime Aggression and Atrocities. This last point being key.

Add to this the United States support/alliance with Japan and repeated insertion into China's core issues of territory and stability; you can understand China's panic in needing to modernize it's military to defend it's recent prosperity.

Now you can really see the "Western" view in the above mentioned thread by taking a look at some of the posts made by Jeff before he had Popeye lock-down the conversation (pages 6-8 I believe).

Without rehashing all of it, Jeff took an aggressive defence of Japan and side-stepped much of Japan's Atrocities by declaring it ancient history and suggesting those responsible are long dead. Where Jeff and the West get it wrong is in their lack of Experience and Education of the topic.

America and the American psychology, never had to endure a war on their own soil. Never had 90% of a family wiped out with the survivor(s) to tell the tale of horror to the next generations. Never had small Town's and large Cities laid waste. The closest they came was the attack on the Pearl Harbour Naval Base. They have no true context to understand Chinese and Korean feelings towards Japan and recent Japanese statements and actions.
**This by the way is the foundation for American Defence - the building of bases elsewhere in the world to remove the chance of battle on American soil.

Compound this lack of Experience with a lack of Education. Western School's, Primary through High School, do not teach about Japanese Atrocity vis-a-vis China & Korea. They focus on Pearl Harbour and some of the highlight battles leading up to the use of Nuclear Weapons and ending of the war. There is no concept of an Asian Holocaust being taught. There was no hunt and trial for Japanese War Criminal's to write about, such as happened to, and continue's to happen to former Nazi's.

So for many in the "West", they look upon China and even the dynamic between China & Japan, without an understanding of the Experience China has faced and how it shapes current and future strategies and policy. I only hope that the senior leadership in the "West" have a more broad view than the general public does towards Asia, as I do believe that cultural differences aside, China & The West can and should work together for the future benefit of us all. Old thinking should be re-evaluated.

Cheers,
Zool
 
AirSuperiority. You are getting things confused. The criticism you mentioned are normal when poor peasants becomes richer in a short period of time. Actually, it is a testament to the successful uplifting of peasants to middle class by the government, This is true for any society when poor unrefined peasants suddenly have to adopt to a middle-class lifestyle. Nothing malicious with these criticism.

What we see in western mainstream media is totally different. Some are born out of ignorance but in many cases, the criticism are malicious and purposely distorted and manipulated for political, commercial and legal advantages. Some are subtle and some are outrageously obvious.
 
AirSuperiority. You are getting things confused. The criticism you mentioned are normal when poor peasants becomes richer in a short period of time. Actually, it is a testament to the successful uplifting of peasants to middle class by the government, This is true for any society when poor unrefined peasants suddenly have to adopt to a middle-class lifestyle. Nothing malicious with these criticism.

What we see in western mainstream media is totally different. Some are born out of ignorance but in many cases, the criticism are malicious and purposely distorted and manipulated for political, commercial and legal advantages. Some are subtle and some are outrageously obvious.

Some are political and commercial intended, and I'd agree that those exist. However we got to understand that the media is only one part of the public, not representative of the entire society. While I anticipate someone will defend and say that the media represents the public, Consider this: an article that gets published is written usually by one editor, or a few more at most. When that particular article about China gets published, most likely it's some fresh news, so it's probably not something people knew too much about yet. Also, this meant it's probably not something that had yet to develop a public sentiment quite yet. (It only makes sense you have to know something first before you have a particular emotion towards it.) That said, it's up to the journalists and the agency to decide how they want to write the stuffs, and that's where you get all the nasties coming out. Afterwards you get online idiots commenting and bashing from the safety of their homes, and most people hide their true attitudes towards these issues in their daily life, particularly if it doesn't concern them. And for most part, no one truly cares or are too concern with an issue or something that doesn't concern them. (I won't really care much about Tahiti until I plan a vacation there.) Pushing forward and switching the lens around, we may read news regarding Japan or the Philippines or Sudan on what they did blah blah blah. However maybe the truth is, something else is happening behind the scene that we don't know about(which is most likely, as news is always an outdated reporting of an event), but it never finds its way to the media because of restrictions or other various issues. In the end, we the ones who read the article will apply our earlier stereotypes and schemas and impressions towards various issues into play, and through our confirmation bias or whatever we select one that tends to speak our mouths better.

Calling it sinister is one possible explanation, but I think for most part that the general public's sentiments or misunderstandings of China aren't that complicated or sinister
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top