Why "the West" gets China wrong

superdog said:

In that case I did understand you point. I mentioned precisely that in my post and my thought is "this is not a very productive way to make our views understandable and convincing". I guess it may work sometimes but I don't think it worked very well here.

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Yes and I can say the same for the typical ways people argue in here and it gets nowhere. Why? Because everyone is going to stick to what they believe. My way is basically pointing out the hypocrisy. That tends to more get to the point.

AssassinsMace said:

Yeah but people from Hong Kong are trying to create their own identity by distinguishing themselves from Mainlanders by what? Bad behavior. You can point out bad behavior all you want. My whole problem has been Hong Kongers have been guilty of it much longer. So they can't really distinguish an identity by pointing out bad behavior as a difference because that's the only thing Hong Kongers have been using as to distinguish their identity to which I've pointed out they're guilty of it too. What happens if a Hong Konger displays bad behavior somewhere? All Hong Kongers have to do is say they're from the Mainland which I have seen done many of times.



Well then you didn't understand my point. I'm generalizing because Mainland Chinese are being generalized and grouped together. And sometimes the best way to get your message across to show how wrong the other side's logic is flawed is by using them in the same context.

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If that's what you think then you have mistaken it all. You may want to take a sociology course to understand what it means to be a culture, and what defines an identity.

I don't think you understand Hong Kong or attempted to understand at all.

HK's history, traditional chinese language, spirits, work ethics, entertainment, food, luxuries, political systems, speech....everything defines and produces HK as a culture. It's the same as Vancouverites will see themselves as different from those from Toronto. This is something unique about them. You think they focused on only the bad side because that's only what you think: you ignored all other aspects. No one would ever think or say that's how others build an identity because building an identity comes from much more than that. It's more than just about "bad things", it's a lot more about other values and stuffs which the ingroup feels it characterizes them. It's a very shallow thing to say, because you're also failing to see the differences between them. Maybe for some outgroup members you may think that way, but what you're doing is same as saying all Whites are the same, or all British are the same. I'm almost quite certainly how Londoners are would be different from someone further north and so on.

Also, it's not called "trying" - they do have their own identity. It's important to recognize others and celebrate their differences as it's only part of getting to understand a culture.

AssassinsMace said:

The only thing being used by those who separate their identity is bad behavior. Do they have anything else to separate their identity? The only thing people in Hong Kong can use is their British connection. So they have the British and supposedly good manners to separate themselves. But they along with others outside the Mainland are the ones who started this stereotype because like I said Mainland tourism is a recent event. So let's eliminate bad behavior as a difference and all Hong Kong has left is British history in Hong Kong. Hong Kong was a little fishing village before the British took over. Are Hong Kongers today majority descendants of those villagers? Nope. So again the only distinction is the British. Are we suppose to believe the British taught good behavior? No, because again Mainland Chinese tourism is a recent event and the stereotypes have been around much longer. It's a hot button issue because bad behavior stereotypes are the only thing Hong Kongers have been using to separate their identity but they were one of the forefathers of it. That's pretty hypocritical especially since they put so much into it.


BTW, worried about this thread being closed? It's August 31st. By tomorrow all these threads will be closed if you haven't read the notice.

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When you say something you don't know, people who knows recognizes it instantly. Your opinion just shows you know almost nothing about Hong Kong. Only someone who knows nothing will say something like that...and even then, people who knows not much sometimes know not to say something outrageous like that.

Also like what you do, I will point out your flaws. In your thoughts, just because much of those HKers came from China before, therefore they are the same. I will like to see you try and say that towards African-Americans as being the same as those from Africa. Would you? I suppose you won't. Why? Because you know they are brought up differently, socialized differently, and even the language, recent history, traditions, have become much different.

All it takes is socialization to be different in other to create a new identity.

As for the rest of your statements towards HKers being solely responsible and all, I just feel that your bias makes your credibility on this claim quite unreliable and probably quite one-sided.

airsuperiority said:

If that's what you think then you have mistaken it all. You may want to take a sociology course to understand what it means to be a culture, and what defines an identity.

I don't think you understand Hong Kong or attempted to understand at all.

HK's history, traditional chinese language, spirits, work ethics, entertainment, food, luxuries, political systems, speech....everything defines and produces HK as a culture. It's the same as Vancouverites will see themselves as different from those from Toronto. This is something unique about them. You think they focused on only the bad side because that's only what you think: you ignored all other aspects. No one would ever think or say that's how others build an identity because building an identity comes from much more than that. It's more than just about "bad things", it's a lot more about other values and stuffs which the ingroup feels it characterizes them. It's a very shallow thing to say, because you're also failing to see the differences between them. Maybe for some outgroup members you may think that way, but what you're doing is same as saying all Whites are the same, or all British are the same. I'm almost quite certainly how Londoners are would be different from someone further north and so on.

Also, it's not called "trying" - they do have their own identity. It's important to recognize others and celebrate their differences as it's only part of getting to understand a culture.

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Yeah but you're forgetting it's only the bad things that are being used to separate identity. Which on top of that like I said has always been the main point is Hong Kongers cannot separate themselves by using bad behavior as an identity because they were one of the forefathers of that stereotype. It's Chinese outside the Mainland that are primarily guilty of bad behavior to which is why there's the stereotype that has existed long before Mainland Chinese were allowed to travel. Using bad behavior to label Mainland Chinese is pretty hypocritical. The irony is people in Hong Kong and else where outside the Mainland that act badly can just easily blame it on the Mainland. My Caucasian friend told me of incident he experience in Taiwan. I used it to argue with a Taiwanese saying the same things you're saying and his deflection was to accuse Mainlanders were behind it not Taiwanese. Yeah but Mainland Chinese are not allowed to travel individually in Taiwan and my friend said it was one person and no one else anywhere that was involved. So the easy excuse for the bad behavior of the Taiwanese was to say it was a Mainlander. You can celebrate difference without bashing someone else and Hong Kongers are doing nothing of the sort because that all I hear is the bad behavior excuse. It's like when I come across racists who can only feel superior by pushing everyone else down. They have nothing to say they're superior otherwise.

AssassinsMace said:

I bring up a superficial TV show because that's what it seems to me what it's all about... the superficiality of trying create an identity separate from the Chinese as if people are going to recognize you as anything but Chinese. Do you admit that people from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore are the reason why the stereotype of bad behaving Chinese tourists exists? There never seems to be an admission to it. There's always a denial and the attempt to separate identity as if they didn't do it themselves. Did I ever say Mainland Chinese don't do it? No, I've always been arguing people from Hong Kong, Taiwan, or Singapore are no different and it's something as despicable as trying to abandon ship before the women and children. You may not see but it does look like Hong Kongers are sucking up to their British masters. About 20% of my relatives are Filipino and I know a lot of Filipinos. I liken what's being seen coming from places like Hong Kong trying to separate their identity as what I've been told is happening with Filipinos. There is a segment of Filipinos because of negative stereotypes or whatever that try to separate themselves and not identify themselves as Filipino out of shame. They either identify themselves as Hawaiian or Polynesian or even Latin or white. That's what I see what's happening with Chinese that don't want to be Chinese. The West is on a negative campaign against anything Chinese. Weaker minds probably can't handle the pressure and will try to desperately not identify themselves as Chinese. You call many of us pro-China deniers? Here in the US Chinese are either self-haters or apathetic. So people who are "pro-China" are a minority. So I don't really get where you have this idea that the majority of Chinese are in denial when most don't even give a crap. What do you want admitted? I wasn't born in China and I recognize everything you complain about but I also lump in all these Hong Kongers, Taiwanese, Singaporeans, etc... trying to separate their identity by pointing to mainland Chinese as different in the same selfish category. That's what these people don't realize is they're all the same. I shouldn't take what's said about Hong Kongers on a US TV show? Maybe Hong Kongers shouldn't believe they're going to be successful at another identity especially when they helped create the very negative stereotypes they're trying to run away from now. It's like the lucrative smuggling market of illegal animal parts. In the past a lot of those parts went to rich people in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea. But since it was called Chinese medicine the Mainland took the blame when most of it was shipped to places outside the Mainland. Who thinks China is perfect and nothing is wrong? No Chinese I know. It's no more defensive than never seeing someone from Hong Kong ever admit that Hong Kong tourists in the past are guilty of the bad behavior they complain about.

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You placed most of the blames again, on HK. I don't really hear you mention China's problems until just now.
And I don't know if I've said majority of Chinese, but I do know that in China there's a huge sentiment about being identifying yourself as Chinese, which is fine...but this leads to also very defensive attitudes towards those who speakill of Chinese. And this do reflect itself with many often quick to defend China, like yourself, when others speak ill of China. It's quite recurring, that rarely any of them even demonstrate attempt to acknowledge points others may have spoken. There are bashers and sincere critics, and while bashers deserves it, critics are just discussing on the issue, and yet they are again perceived as a threat. Ingroups have more obligations generally, to introspect and examine and discuss their own flaws. You don't, and rather I noticed your habits in most of your posts have been focusing the attention on others.

Chinese values is about humility, humbleness, and self-improvement. It doesn't help when people demonstrate arrogance with their new wealth or of China's growing power, or continue to play the victim's card and keep thinking the world is out to get them.

When people talk about Hong Kong, I attempt to recognize their points to determine validity. And even on my own, I criticize Hong Kong for their problems and discuss them with people.

airsuperiority said:

You placed most of the blames again, on HK. I don't really hear you mention China's problems until just now.
And I don't know if I've said majority of Chinese, but I do know that in China there's a huge sentiment about being identifying yourself as Chinese, which is fine...but this leads to also very defensive attitudes towards those who speakill of Chinese. And this do reflect itself with many often quick to defend China, like yourself, when others speak ill of China. It's quite recurring, that rarely any of them even demonstrate attempt to acknowledge points others may have spoken. There are bashers and sincere critics, and while bashers deserves it, critics are just discussing on the issue, and yet they are again perceived as a threat. Ingroups have more obligations generally, to introspect and examine and discuss their own flaws. You don't, and rather I noticed your habits in most of your posts have been focusing the attention on others. You have a very simplistic way of seeing things. Just because people defend China they have to be in denial? Where's the introspection of everyone else? You don't seem to be demanding that especially in Hong Kong.

Chinese values is about humility, humbleness, and self-improvement. It doesn't help when people demonstrate arrogance with their new wealth or of China's growing power, or continue to play the victim's card and keep thinking the world is out to get them.

When people talk about Hong Kong, I attempt to recognize their points to determine validity. And even on my own, I criticize Hong Kong for their problems and discuss them with people.

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Well that's what you're seeing but I have never said that Mainland Chinese don't behave this way. I've been arguing that Hong Kongers, Taiwanese, Singaporeans, and whoever else are in no position to accuse Mainlanders of behaving badly. You're seeing the focus on Hong Kong because you're separating Hong Kong identity. Why would Mainlanders bring up the victim card in Hong Kong? Or was that just a swipe against us in here? People who use the use of the victim card against someone else do it because they can't argue against a valid point. Much like how there's a deflection of admission that Hong Kongers have a part in the bad behaving stereotype. Do you see China waiting around doing nothing as if someone has to pick up the victim? Hong Kongers don't make themselves out to be victims? Maybe it's only wrong making oneself out to be the victim of the West because it's not like Hong Kong is not stopping themselves into being a victim of the Mainland?

Do we see Hong Kongers being introspective? Pretty hypocritical. You say I'm focusing my attention on others? Yeah when someone is hypocritical enough to accuse someone else of behavior that they're guilty of too, yeah.. I'm going to point that out. I don't pee in places where I'm not suppose to. I stand in line. And I don't go around saying how better I am or the Chinese over everyone else. If you believe otherwise then you're assuming a lot of bull because you want to believe it to make yourself feel better. If I'm not on your side, I must be everything you don't like on the other side. When there's only two choices, there's no choice at all. People who think in black and white like that want to control the conversation. "If you're not on my side which I will dictate to you and you must follow, you then must be on the side of Hitler!"

I'd thought you would've figured out that I'm not from the Mainland so I don't know where you come from accusing me of being blind. You seem to be not reading my posts because it clearly states that all Chinese from the Mainland and outside are guilty of bad behavior. Where's the denial you see in that? You're just upset that I 'm pointing out the hypocrisy of Hong Kongers making themselves innocent where they're guilty of it themselves. Maybe you shouldn't make Hong Kongers out to be superior because the higher you fly, the harder the crash. I still haven't seen you admit that Hong Kongers have contributed to the bad behavior stereotype. That's called denial because to admit it means to lose the identity that is so precious to you. It says Hong Kongers don't have strong ground in the first place because bad behavior is the only thing being used to declare a difference. That would be something if it were true but like I said Hong Kongers were one of the forefathers of that stereotype in the first place. So it's pretty darn hypocritical.

Ironic this whole debate is being introspective yet there's still a problem.

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