why doesn't china have/get long range AAM?

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
That is exactly what i said in my previous post. It does now seem to me that it's impossible to launch a silver bullet kind of attack versus an awacs, destroying it without losses. Fighting through fighter cover is a definite must. What i am wondering now is what is the usual number of f18s guarding an E2 in a combat situation. With the maximum number of f18s per carrier and E2 rotation, it can not possibly be more than 10. even that is probably exaggerated since f18s have shorter flight endurance than a E2 and would require more frequent rotation.

So lets assume we have a network of chinese awacs, in passive mode, trying to find the carrier's E2s. I'm no expert, i don't know if an active radar E2 would detect a passive chinese awacs without its location being detected too. Once that happens, a large number of su27, also in passive mode, could be sent to the E2s last position, flying as fast as they can. Sure, E2 would go passive and start getting away but it's damn slow compared to su27. sukhois would have to go fully active to have any chance of actually locating the running E2, which of course would mean the E2s cover would be waiting for them, plus a reinforcement from the carrier would be sent. If the E2 would be some 300 km from the carrier i don't believe the reinforcements could arrive in time to save the E2. So that leaves only the fighter cover it had in the beginning to defend it. Probably all superhornets would be lost (here i assume its 2007, no tomcats anymore), alongside with the E2. Only issue is, at what cost for the chinese? 5 sukhois? 10? 20? 40? Not to mention the great logistical and command effort so coordinate all the awacs from the beginning of the scenario to locate the carrier and a large enough number of sukhois on permanent watch out, probably requiring in air refuelling. Rinse, repeat, shoot down some more E2s from the carrier, sent to replace the downed one. Then the carrier would either have its air cover seriously compromised and open to an air attack or, more probably, the carrier would turn away and get out of range, but at the same time getting too far away for its aircraft to do any damage.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
why use fighters when you can use missles? an s-300 or hq-2 can shoot down an awacs easily. if the awacs is over taiwan strait, send a few warships under it and fire. the attack will kill thee awacs and maybe some of it's escorts.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
MIGleader said:
because of taiwans proximity to china, china can use a ground to air missle to shoot down an awacs.

I would assume Taiwanese would be smart enough not to fly that close. They would probably stick over the taiwanese soil and not venture into the strait itself with their E2s (and any other aircraft for that matter). Anyway, so far chinese haven't gotten the 200km ranged version of s300 even though that's probably just a matter of time.

As for sending ships, well, they're easy to detect way in advance and they're slow. Taiwanese would first see if they could attack the incoming fleet and if they can't do that they would surely move back w their awacs, not letting them get in range of s300 and the like.
 
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MIGleader

Banned Idiot
true...then send sukois and have them launch standoff weapons at the awacs.

or better... j-8s. they are intercepters and losing one wouldn't be as bas as losing a flanker.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
MIGleader said:
why use fighters when you can use missles? an s-300 or hq-2 can shoot down an awacs easily. if the awacs is over taiwan strait, send a few warships under it and fire. the attack will kill thee awacs and maybe some of it's escorts.

By using SAM's you cede the initiative to the enemy. You are reacting to their actions. The best way to shoot down an aircraft is with another aircraft. That is the US doctrine.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
MIGleader said:
true...then send sukois and have them launch standoff weapons at the awacs.

or better... j-8s. they are intercepters and losing one wouldn't be as bas as losing a flanker.

Actually, that's one thing i'm really curious about. Just how capable are J8 avionics? If they could be enabled to detect and track superhornet sized targets some 150km away, also enabled to carry and launch R77s, they definitely would be a more cost-efficient solution for such 'suicide' attacks. They're crap for dogfighting but they are pretty darn fast and have decent range, with good avionics they'd make a fine interceptor.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Totoro said:
That is exactly what i said in my previous post. It does now seem to me that it's impossible to launch a silver bullet kind of attack versus an awacs, destroying it without losses. Fighting through fighter cover is a definite must. What i am wondering now is what is the usual number of f18s guarding an E2 in a combat situation. With the maximum number of f18s per carrier and E2 rotation, it can not possibly be more than 10. even that is probably exaggerated since f18s have shorter flight endurance than a E2 and would require more frequent rotation.

So lets assume we have a network of chinese awacs, in passive mode, trying to find the carrier's E2s. I'm no expert, i don't know if an active radar E2 would detect a passive chinese awacs without its location being detected too. Once that happens, a large number of su27, also in passive mode, could be sent to the E2s last position, flying as fast as they can. Sure, E2 would go passive and start getting away but it's damn slow compared to su27. sukhois would have to go fully active to have any chance of actually locating the running E2, which of course would mean the E2s cover would be waiting for them, plus a reinforcement from the carrier would be sent. If the E2 would be some 300 km from the carrier i don't believe the reinforcements could arrive in time to save the E2. So that leaves only the fighter cover it had in the beginning to defend it. Probably all superhornets would be lost (here i assume its 2007, no tomcats anymore), alongside with the E2. Only issue is, at what cost for the chinese? 5 sukhois? 10? 20? 40? Not to mention the great logistical and command effort so coordinate all the awacs from the beginning of the scenario to locate the carrier and a large enough number of sukhois on permanent watch out, probably requiring in air refuelling. Rinse, repeat, shoot down some more E2s from the carrier, sent to replace the downed one. Then the carrier would either have its air cover seriously compromised and open to an air attack or, more probably, the carrier would turn away and get out of range, but at the same time getting too far away for its aircraft to do any damage.

Passive detection only gets you the rough coordinates of teh AWACS. The SU 27 you sent to that location will be flying blind, if their radar is off. The AWACS can detect them as soon as they are in range and will vector fighters to ambush them. US datalink technology ensures that the super hornets, see exactly what the E-2 see's. The pilots on SU 27 will have no radar view unless they turn on their radar. Unfortunately, fighter radar does not have a 360 degree coverage. The are in a ripe position for an ambush.

Secondly, the USN commander can vector an Aegis ship, at 0 EMCOM, near the AWAC patrol area. As soon as teh SU-27 gets in range, the ship lits up its radar and the SAM trap is set.

USN fighters have buddy refueling system. Carriers normally carry 4 E-2's.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
an aegis warship in taiwan strait!! it wont last a minute. the US strategy calls for keeping their vessels distanced from the combat zone.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
MIGleader said:
an aegis warship in taiwan strait!! it wont last a minute. the US strategy calls for keeping their vessels distanced from the combat zone.


An AEW unit will never patrol inside the straight. It can see the straight hundreds of miles away.

An Aegis warship will last for as long as the time it takes for missile magazines to run out. But it will take with it significant PLA military assets to destroy, deplete its AShM arsenal, etc.
 
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