Unrest in Tibet!!

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Troika

Junior Member
Autumn Child said:
Well I will start off with these intresting article not ussually seen in mainstream western media that are obviously biased. I have been monitoring this situation very closely lately as it seems to draw memories of my childhood being oppressed by Indonesian government. Makes me think why does everyone cares about tibetan so much and yet no one, absolutely no one (including China) cares about overseas chinese being oppressed and suffering a true cultural (and to some extent ethnic)genocide in the last few decades?
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To risk going on tangent, why SHOULD the People's Republic care, beyond normal concerns of possible unrest and instability?

'Overseas Chinese' left China, in some cases, their ancestors left China CENTURIES ago. Vast majority are no longer citizens. It's a principle of China's that how a country treats its own is its own sovereign affair. China hs no more business interfering than foreign countries have business interfering in China.

To think otherwise assumes that China has some sort of obligation/ responsibility to anybody of Chinese descent, and that is dangerous assumption not far remove from faschist Germany's assumption that all Germans automatically listen to Berlin.

On a pragmatic front:
-There is not much China CAN do. China does not have power-projection capabilities, not then, and not really now
-Making noises when you have nothing to back it up just makes things WORSE for the Chinese overseas. Especially if they are now suspected of being in league with big scary communist foreign country. Imagine Mao throwing some angry rhetoric at Malaysia's way during the anti-Chinese riots... do you HONESTLY think that'll actually do anything but make things worse?
-And to act this way, ineffectually, China risks undermining the whole basis of its foreign policy doctrine
-It's not good business
 
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alwaysfresh

New Member
bd popeye said:
One of our esteemed members ,Finn McCool, asked could we start a Tibet thread. Well apparently I said yes.

Tibet issues may be discussed in this thread. Politics of Tibet included. Do not discuss politics in any other threads!!!!!!
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China is always the exception.

How about an Iraq/Israeli/Gaza/... thread with politics and pictures? Well two more US soldiers died from a road side boom (want to see some pics) and some personal opinions/comments about the US military presence there. Personally I do not want to see the picture nor hear the personal insults towards US military in Iraq, but the hypocrisy of this thread and the forum rules are thick...
 
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alwaysfresh

New Member
Finn McCool said:
As I said the Chinese government has a duty to protect its citizens. Thus I cannot fault it for restoring order and arresting rioters. The same would be expected in the US. But the Chinese government has a duty to protect ALL its citizens. Hans, Tibetans, everyone. Equally. All governments have that duty. Tibetans have legitimate greviances because China has failed to do its duty towards them, instead treating them as subjects whose culture is a danger to national unity.
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Are you talking about China or the US?

How in the hell would you know what is going on in China? CNN/FOX the ones that lies to your face about WMD in Iraq. Not like people like you care because it is all about dominance in the world and hypocrisy.

ps. I respect your opinion, but no US citizen in the US has any idea of what is happening another part of the world because there are 6 media organization in the US that are all control by the government, as perfectly seen as the gang totally blocked Ron Paul from becoming president. The real difference between the US and China is that you believe the BS you get from the news, everyone in China knows they only get partial truths.
 
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Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
alwaysfresh said:
Are you talking about China or the US?

How in the hell would you know what is going on in China? CNN/FOX the ones that lies to your face about WMD in Iraq. Not like people like you care because it is all about dominance in the world and hypocrisy.

ps. I respect your opinion, but no US citizen in the US has any idea of what is happening another part of the world because there are 6 media organization in the US that control all the news.
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An intellectual cop-out. A tired old line trotted out again and again. You don't answer me, you just say that I have no idea what's going on. You can't assume that all Americans are blinded by their media. And what's more I'm not you're average American. I'm more aware and involved that 95% just by being a member here. I turn to international outlets, etc. to get my news as well as the American sources. I don't need you to tell me Fox is a bad news source and that there is much wrong with American news media. And ultimately I trust my own judgement on what I believe is true. Do you assume that CCTV and Xinhua are better?! They're far worse.

I respect your opinion as well, but if you try to score points just by saying I have no idea what's going on without answering my arguements with logical analysys, I'm gonna call you on it.

You're right-All nations are blinded and hypocritical in their perceptions of others in at least some areas. It's a natural human thing.
 
AssassinsMace

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
In regards to the point that the rioters were young. If you've seen that footage of the Chinese motorcyclist being stoned, unless Tibetans don't age well, those people were middle-aged.

And there was eyewitness accounts of Tibetan monks seen leading violence and arson attacks on buildings.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Troika said:
To risk going on tangent, why SHOULD the People's Republic care, beyond normal concerns of possible unrest and instability?

'Overseas Chinese' left China, in some cases, their ancestors left China CENTURIES ago. Vast majority are no longer citizens. It's a principle of China's that how a country treats its own is its own sovereign affair. China hs no more business interfering than foreign countries have business interfering in China.

To think otherwise assumes that China has some sort of obligation/ responsibility to anybody of Chinese descent, and that is dangerous assumption not far remove from faschist Germany's assumption that all Germans automatically listen to Berlin.

On a pragmatic front:
-There is not much China CAN do. China does not have power-projection capabilities, not then, and not really now
-Making noises when you have nothing to back it up just makes things WORSE for the Chinese overseas. Especially if they are now suspected of being in league with big scary communist foreign country. Imagine Mao throwing some angry rhetoric at Malaysia's way during the anti-Chinese riots... do you HONESTLY think that'll actually do anything but make things worse?
-And to act this way, ineffectually, China risks undermining the whole basis of its foreign policy doctrine
-It's not good business
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Well unless you know the history of overseas Chinese you should refrain from making comment

to begin with Indonesian Chinese have dual citizenship under the agreement between China and Dutch Indie and continue until the Republic time.

Actually it is Zhou En Lai who started the problem During his visit to Asia Africa conference He is calling all the Indonesian Chinese Chinese citizen and ask them to support China.

Alarmed the Indonesian start the motion to abrogate the treaty and forced everybody to choose side

Because of economic failure in Indonesea Chinese become the easy scapegoat for the politician and pogrom followed At first China send ships to evacuate the overseas Chinese but Suffering from the failure of long leap forward She soon stop sending ship and Leave the Indonesian Chinese to themselves

That long before the idea of "Non interference" Radio China exhorted all the overseas chinese to support China and She openly support socalled Communist faction during struggle for power in Indonesia and remembered this during the cold war The Chinese were forbiden to practice their culture and language until recently and forced to take Indonesian name That is real cultural Genocide!

Now tell me after creating all the problem Does China at least has the moral responsibility to at least bring attention to the plight of Chinese in Indonesia? No she doesn't because as Zhou En Lai said it is as if you given away Yes I know in Chinese culture daughter has no value whatsoever!

Tibetan is not EU or US citizen for that matter but it doesn't prevent the from making comment or bring attention
 
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aquauant

aquauant

Junior Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
The only problem with your analogy is not only the wife slap She also maimed and killed the husband Now bring that argument in front of the jury and judge!
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I think you have it wrong. The husband has not died. Otherwise, the wife would be free as a bird. In this case, if China disintegrates because of this riot, Tibet will probably declares independence. A violent riot with loss of lives in tibet will not kill China. It will probably hurt tibet itself in the near future.

I think the point is that wife definitely is in the wrong when she physically slaps her husband. He has a case against her on this matter. She should go to jail for physically hitting him. But if one looks back the relationship, oppression is one-sided. The husband may say what happened happened and I was crazy back in the 60s, and argues his wife is now better off with him than living alone.

I think it is sad that people cannot take into consideration of the loss of life and property in the riot, although sad, may not be equivalent to the thousands of deaths of tibetan during and after the liberation/invasion (depending if you are in giving end or receiving end), not to mention the sysematic oppression and marginalization of tibetan culture.

Anyway, this is the way it is. If you try use moral judgement to rationalize this world, you will go insane. You can beat people up because you can, until you get beaten by a bigger thug.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Well unless you know the history of overseas Chinese you should refrain from making comment

to begin with Indonesian Chinese have dual citizenship under the agreement between China and Dutch Indie and continue until the Republic time.

Actually it is Zhou En Lai who started the problem During his visit to Asia Africa conference He is calling all the Indonesian Chinese Chinese citizen and ask them to support China.

Alarmed the Indonesian start the motion to abrogate the treaty and forced everybody to choose nationality

Because of economic failure in Indonesea, Chinese become the easy scapegoat for the politician and pogrom followed At first China send ships to evacuate the overseas Chinese but thenselves suffering from the failure of long leap forward She soon stop sending ship and Leave the Indonesian Chinese to themselves

That long before the idea of "Non interference" Radio China exhorted all the overseas chinese to support China and She openly support socalled Communist faction during struggle for power in Indonesia and Guess who received the wrath of Indonesian thugs. Riot and pogrom followed just like the one in in Lhasa now The Chinese were forbiden to practice their culture and language until recently and forced to take Indonesian name That is real cultural Genocide!

Now tell me after creating all the problem Does China at least has the moral responsibility to at least bring attention to the plight of Chinese in Indonesia? No she doesn't because as Zhou En Lai said it is as if you given away your daughter in marriage Yes I know in Chinese culture daughter has no value whatsoever!

Tibetan is not EU or US citizen for that matter but it doesn't prevent them from making comment or bring attention of the perceived maltreatment of Tibetan though compare to Indonesian Chinese The Tibetan had it so good they are free to practice their religion and their language is taught at primary school all the way to University
 
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crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
As much as there are legitimate grievances, it is no excuse to attack other people especially by singling them out through their ethnicity. Furthermore the Hui are not part of the "oppressive" government either and they are after all, another minority, one that practices Islam and with an ethnic connection to the Turkish minorities to the north. But here the Hui are also being attacked, which raises an ugly specter of something that originally was thought to be gone and buried---ethnic violence between Buddhists and Moslems and between different minority groups. Don't think for a second the Moslems in China would not remember this.

All this smacks of Balkanization.

Every country has citizens that has grievances. I mean just look at the newspaper. But if all of them would take the course of violence that includes riot, terrorism and murder against innocent civilians to address those grievances, there would be utter chaos in every city and capital in the world. Those responsible for violence against innocent civilians have lost their particular right to be heard. They deserve to be treated accordingly.

I don't see how Tibetan culture and language has something to do with this either. Its a universal problem with all ethnicities around the world that are under the cultural assault of vastly more modern and prosperous cultures, that they feel "threatened" by natural social evolution. At the same time, native peoples also feel resentful when they see other group become more prosperous in their own neighborhoods. The way this goes, it just reminds me smack of the LA race riots in 1991 where Korean establishments (not necessarily Korean, you just need to look Asian) are being singled out even when they are not part of the establishment. It also raises the ugly specter of the Indonesian rioting against Chinese diaspora, which includes much rape and murder. or much of it is really grievance, or just racial or religious hatred from being the economic and socially dispossessed.

Anytime you single out and scape goat a racial group for whatever reason, the historical record has shown this has never done any good, and in occasion, has led to the most grievious evils the world has ever known.

In any case, this thread will be closely monitored. Everyone responding to this has the obligation to act maturely and reasonable. But if people are uncomfortable with the topic, I suggest it best be closed.
 
aquauant

aquauant

Junior Member
crobato said:
As much as there are legitimate grievances, it is no excuse to attack other people especially by singling them out through their ethnicity. Furthermore the Hui are not part of the "oppressive" government either and they are after all, another minority, one that practices Islam and with an ethnic connection to the Turkish minorities to the north. But here the Hui are also being attacked, which raises an ugly specter of something that originally was thought to be gone and buried---ethnic violence between Buddhists and Moslems and between different minority groups. Don't think for a second the Moslems in China would not remember this.

All this smacks of Balkanization.

Every country has citizens that has grievances. I mean just look at the newspaper. But if all of them would take the course of violence that includes riot, terrorism and murder against innocent civilians to address those grievances, there would be utter chaos in every city and capital in the world. Those responsible for violence against innocent civilians have lost their particular right to be heard. They deserve to be treated accordingly.

I don't see how Tibetan culture and language has something to do with this either. Its a universal problem with all ethnicities around the world that are under the cultural assault of vastly more modern and prosperous cultures, that they feel "threatened" by natural social evolution. At the same time, native peoples also feel resentful when they see other group become more prosperous in their own neighborhoods. The way this goes, it just reminds me smack of the LA race riots in 1991 where Korean establishments (not necessarily Korean, you just need to look Asian) are being singled out even when they are not part of the establishment. It also raises the ugly specter of the Indonesian rioting against Chinese diaspora, which includes much rape and murder. or much of it is really grievance, or just racial or religious hatred from being the economic and socially dispossessed.

Anytime you single out a racial group for riots and pillage, the historical record has shown this has never done any good, and in occasion, has led to the most grievious evils the world has ever known.

In any case, this thread will be closely monitored. Everyone responding to this has the obligation to act maturely and reasonable. But if people are uncomfortable with the topic, I suggest it best be closed.
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As I said, violent riot as violent wife is wrong in both moral and legal sense. Yes, I am sure the rioters beat up more than just han and muslim. A Japanese tourist complained about getting hits by stones. Maybe they hate the japanese as well. But somehow I just dont see the logic of refusing to connect this riot with the past oppression just because rioters use racial profiling to beat up or kill. Actually, there is a tibetan doc who also got hurt by the rioters.

I went to lhasa only twice and I only know a few han chinese friends who own curio shops in Barkhor street. Sure, the Han Chinese are smart and own most of the local economy and most of the govt jobs and contracts. Maybe Tibetan are a few fries short of a happymeal. I guess what you want to say is that the world has moved on, if you cannot follow, step aside or be stepped over. They had it coming. No point to cry baby about the losing culture because this is the way it is.

On this point, I totally agree. I just admit it is a fact of life. Only the thug with a bigger stick (i.e. technology and money...etc for those who dont like my analogy) wins.
 
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