Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

sequ · Feb 3, 2022

To further elaborate on the AI-9500F, information is scarce but I've found a dry-weight figure of 1060kg at 9500kg thrust. This means a TWR of 8.96 which is better than the M88 and almost reaching EJ200/F414 level.

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The AI-322F has a TWR of 7.5 at 560kg and 4200kg thrust, but the AI-322-30F has 4900kg of thrust. Dry-weight is not available though but if it weighs the same, then it has a TWR of 8.75. If it weighs a bit heavier at 600kg then the TWR is still above 8.

Motor-Sich planned to use the AI-9500F as a platform to develop a 15 tonne afterburning turbofan engine for China back in 2009:

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To me it seems they could replicate this plan for the TF-X.

Philister · Feb 4, 2022

sequ said:
To further elaborate on the AI-9500F, information is scarce but I've found a dry-weight figure of 1060kg at 9500kg thrust. This means a TWR of 8.96 which is better than the M88 and almost reaching EJ200/F414 level.

View attachment 82130

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The AI-322F has a TWR of 7.5 at 560kg and 4200kg thrust, but the AI-322-30F has 4900kg of thrust. Dry-weight is not available though but if it weighs the same, then it has a TWR of 8.75. If it weighs a bit heavier at 600kg then the TWR is still above 8.

Motor-Sich planned to use the AI-9500F as a platform to develop a 15 tonne afterburning turbofan engine for China back in 2009:

View attachment 82131

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To me it seems they could replicate this plan for the TF-X.

The TWR standard they are using,the Soviet one, is dramatically different from what you (Turkish) are used to, for example,the original AL-31 TWR under French standard is no more than 7, 6.5-7 if I remembered correctly, so talking about that dry weight, does it include the lubricant? Or just the engine itself? And AL-9500F itself isn’t a done project let alone building a 15T class engine based on it, too many big IFs in there, one should not buy Ukrainian product unless it’s matured during Soviet era

gelgoog · Feb 4, 2022

What happened with China shows Ukraine is highly susceptible to US meddling in case it tries to export something to someone they don't want. That alone should be reason for pause.

sequ · Feb 4, 2022

An agreement has been reached between Turkiye and Ukraine about the production, maintenance and modernization of drones in Ukraine:

"According to the agreement, Baykar Defence is to create a subsidiary company to realize its project on establishing a new plant for Bayraktar unmanned aerial vehicles assemblage, as well as centers for maintenance and modernization. Another condition exempts Turkish investors from income taxes from UAV production for 10 years.

Ukraine guarantees the inviolability of investments, establishes officials’ responsibility levels in order to prevent undermining the application of the project. Turkish investors will be able to receive land for a plant free of charge, with terms set to 49 years. Also, they are allowed to transfer UAV components duty-free. All the information about finance and personnel involved in the plant building project will be confidential.

The application of this agreement is entrusted to the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Strategic Industries, as well as the Turkish Ministry of Industry and Technology. The deadline of this agreement’s implementation is January 1, 2035."

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sequ · Feb 4, 2022

Philister said:
The TWR standard they are using,the Soviet one, is dramatically different from what you (Turkish) are used to, for example,the original AL-31 TWR under French standard is no more than 7, 6.5-7 if I remembered correctly, so talking about that dry weight, does it include the lubricant? Or just the engine itself?

Do you have source(s)?

Philister said:
And AL-9500F itself isn’t a done project let alone building a 15T class engine based on it, too many big IFs in there,

The sources I used in post #1921 quote Ukrainian sources in the gasturbine field. I'm sure they know their own capabilities and what they talk about and about the AI-9500F not being done is because there is no one to invest in the engine.

Philister said:
one should not buy Ukrainian product unless it’s matured during Soviet era

You can tell that to the PLAAF with hundreds of various AI-225 variants delivered and still in delivery since 2011:

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gelgoog said:
What happened with China shows Ukraine is highly susceptible to US meddling in case it tries to export something to someone they don't want. That alone should be reason for pause.

False comparison. China is the geopolitical rival of the US and it wanted to buy the company. Turkiye which is still a US ally at least on paper is seeking design and development assistance for an engine.

The AI-322(F) uses blisks and doesn't have an IGV which is quite impressive. It reminds me of the EJ200 inlet design. The AI-9500F is building upon this experience also featuring from what I can see at least no IGV and most probably also blisks. It is not surprising the AL-9500F approaches the EJ200 TWR.

AI-9500F and EJ200 comparison:

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CasualObserver · Feb 4, 2022

Philister said:
The TWR standard they are using,the Soviet one, is dramatically different from what you (Turkish) are used to, for example,the original AL-31 TWR under French standard is no more than 7, 6.5-7 if I remembered correctly, so talking about that dry weight, does it include the lubricant? Or just the engine itself? And AL-9500F itself isn’t a done project let alone building a 15T class engine based on it, too many big IFs in there, one should not buy Ukrainian product unless it’s matured during Soviet era

As an addition to the things you say, AFAIK, the engine is still only a design on the drawing board, they haven't even built a prototype yet but people say that it can be used, personally I don't get it.

I mean, aside from everything, just Westernising it would be a headache. And choosing this engine would delay the Block-2 with the national turbofan for a long time.

siegecrossbow · Feb 4, 2022

gelgoog said:
What happened with China shows Ukraine is highly susceptible to US meddling in case it tries to export something to someone they don't want. That alone should be reason for pause.

I don't think the U.S. would meddle with Turkey the extent it messes with China. Even in China's case they didn't stop engine exports from Motor Sich to China, only the company acquisition deal.

Philister · Feb 4, 2022

gelgoog said:
What happened with China shows Ukraine is highly susceptible to US meddling in case it tries to export something to someone they don't want. That alone should be reason for pause.

Not in this case, at least in 2009, sino-us relationship isn’t that bad , Ukrainians actually took part in designing the wings for Y-20

sequ said:
Do you have source(s)?

The sources I used in post #1921 quote Ukrainian sources in the gasturbine field. I'm sure they know their own capabilities and what they talk about and about the AI-9500F not being done is because there is no one to invest in the engine.

You can tell that to the PLAAF with hundreds of various AI-225 variants delivered and still in delivery since 2011:

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View attachment 82176

False comparison. China is the geopolitical rival of the US and it wanted to buy the company. Turkiye which is still a US ally at least on paper is seeking design and development assistance for an engine.

The AI-322(F) uses blisks and doesn't have an IGV which is quite impressive. It reminds me of the EJ200 inlet design. The AI-9500F is building upon this experience also featuring from what I can see at least no IGV and most probably also blisks. It is not surprising the AL-9500F approaches the EJ200 TWR.

AI-9500F and EJ200 comparison:

View attachment 82177 View attachment 82178

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I don’t know if the new deal is real, cuz the source appeared to be “defense blog”, things have been changed since trump ,China failed to purchase the motor sich,and AL-222 series is actually Joint developed by Russia and Ukraine .motor sich had a lot of tech transfer to China (GT-25000 for example) because they were struggling, they have been struggling for like at least 20years and imagine how much research power/crew they’ve lost during that time,let alone catching up with the new tech, China wants it because it gives us a instant capability of all kinds of engines (D-18T for example),not necessarily good ,but usable, I’m sure that’s not Turkey pursuing now

Philister · Feb 4, 2022

As an addition to the things you say, AFAIK, the engine is still only a design on the drawing board, they haven't even built a prototype yet but people say that it can be used, personally I don't get it.

CasualObserver said:
I mean, aside from everything, just Westernising it would be a headache. And choosing this engine would delay the Block-2 with the national turbofan for a long time.

It’s realistic to absorb Ukrainian crew in Turkish developing team, they are experienced to say the least, China/Russia/NK/Europe/US ,they are the true legacy of the Soviet Union

sequ · Feb 4, 2022

Meteksan laser-based helicopter obstacle detection system to be used on T129 and T929 attack helicopters. First delivery of the system will be this year:

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Turkey Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

sequ

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gelgoog

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sequ

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siegecrossbow

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sequ

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