The War in the Ukraine

Hinex

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⚡️Briefing by Russian Defence Ministry

▫️The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue the special military operation in Ukraine.

High-precision air-based missiles near Andreevka, Kharkov Region, have destroyed a foreign mercenaries' deployment site.

▫️In addition, over the past day, high-precision air-based missiles have hit 9 areas where AFU manpower and military equipment concentration, 5 firing positions of multiple-launch rocket systems near Maloryazantsevo, Volcheyarovka, Podgornoe, Malaya Illinovka and Lisichansk in Lugansk People's Republic and also destroyed 1 Buk-M1 anti-aircraft missile system near Minkovka in Donetsk People's Republic.

✈️Operational-tactical and army aviation have hit 48 areas of AFU manpower and military equipment concentration.

▫️The attacks have resulted in the elimination of more than 170 nationalists, 5 tanks, 6 field artillery guns, 8 special vehicles and 1 ammunition depot near Krasnopol'e, Donetsk People's Republic.

Russian air defence means have shot down 2 MiG-29 aircraft near Snegirevka, Nikolaev Region, and 1 Su-25 aircraft near Alexandrovka, Kharkov Region, over the past 24 hours.

▫️Also 12 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles have been shot down near Illichevka, Chkalovskoe, Krasnoe, Malye Prokhody, Zavody, Brazhkovka, Vernopolye, Ovodmytrovskaya, Hrushevakha in Kharkov Region, Vasilevka, Stakhanov, Teplogorsk in Lugansk People's Republic.

▫️In addition, 3 rockets of Ukrainian Uragan multiple-launch rocket system have been intercepted near Dolgenkoe, Sukhaya Kamenka and Malaya Kamyshevakha in Kharkov Region.

Missile troops and artillery have hit 231 areas of manpower and military equipment concentration, 13 command posts and 42 firing positions of artillery and mortar units.

▫️The attacks have resulted in the destruction of more than 300 nationalists, 11 armoured vehicles, 2 Grad multiple rocket launchers, 10 field artillery mounts, 9 special vehicles, and 9 storage facilities for missile and artillery weapons, ammunition and fuel.

In total, 198 Ukrainian airplanes and 130 helicopters, 1,180 unmanned aerial vehicles, 337 anti-aircraft missile systems, 3,503 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 506 multiple launch rocket systems, 1,859 field artillery and mortars, as well as 3,545 units of special military vehicles were destroyed during the operation.

#MoD #Russia #Ukraine #Briefing
@mod_russia_en

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LawLeadsToPeace

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Moderator - World Affairs
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Another summer vacation went wrong, Ukraine forces under Russian's artillery fire. Sounds like the guy recording this is crying :
It sounds like an explosion occurred next to the recorder if you look at the smoke billowing in the lower left-hand corner at 0:06. That can lead to shrapnel or a shockwave hitting him which caused the guy to cry/whimper.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
The fundamental issue with airpower in Ukraine vs Russia is [...]

... that Russia doesn't understand air power and as a result it doesn't have the necessary resources and skills to conduct air operations on a level that is appropriate to this campaign. So they keep quiet and hope nobody realizes that they were all of them deceived for another ring was made and it cost all of the money for training and munitions.

Soviet Union ended 30 years ago. Russian Air Force is a solution to a political problem - not a tool for military strategy. RuAF commanders know that:
  • their air force is mostly a bluff
  • they are already taking problematic losses
  • if they attempted to fight a proper air campaign - for which they are not prepared and have not received training - the losses would quickly become unsustainable
The losses don't have to come from the enemy. There's a reason why e.g. Desert Storm air campaign lasted five weeks but not six or seven. It takes a machine effort to fly and there's a point at which planes simply fall out of the sky. Air forces know how to maintain optempo and when to quit.

Calculate like this:

After close to four months of combat operations (15 weeks = 3x Desert Storm) number of confirmed losses (destroyed/heavily damaged) to aircraft lost to excessive combat use (requiring overhaul) is at minimum 1:2. So if RuAF already lost 10 Su-34s it lost 20 Su-34s from excessive use. If it lost 13 Su-25s it temporarily lost another 26 Su-25s. If it lost 5 Su-30s it lost 10 more etc. Those are not aircraft which are in regular maintenance that takes a bit longer because of high optempo. They need total overhaul because they were used so much. The rest is available at the usual 60-70% mission capable rate.

I attached aircraft numbers so you can recalculate how many are available - especially including geographical split - after glorious liberation of 20% of a almost-failed state with no economy. Peter I is bursting with pride so much his tomb could power all of Sankt Petersburg.

People who imagine themselves knowledgeable might disagree and point to the fact that Russia has approximately four hundred new 4,5-gen fighters (Su-30SM, Su-35S, Su-34) delivered after 2010 and that should solve everything but there are many factors which enable effective use of this potential (like funding for training of crews which for years has been at very low level, but on which I have little hard data) including three crucial bottlenecks which play a particularly important role in Ukraine:


1. Situational awareness on the ground and at low altitudes within enemy territory

Russia has only nine AWACS aircraft (3 A-50 and 6 modernized A-50U). Initially they operated them in Belarus but now they have shifted to Crimea after loss of Moskva. If two A-50s are on constant patrol that's the entire AWACS fleet that RuAF has available. A-50 is also not a modern system - it's Soviet technology from the 80s. It's worse than old E-3. A-100 is in development and just one airframe has been built for testing.

To that Russia can add only about 20 obsolete Il-20s performing ELINT but these aircraft are in no way sufficient to provide the necessary information in real time. There are only two new Tu-204 ELINT platforms in service. That means Russia is flying with data late by several hours at best and once they're in the air their ability to adapt to a change in tactical situation is limited.

Russia has to fly around on the battlefield using either passive detection or active radar to find targets. Passive detection requires dedicated aircraft flying with pods but they are susceptible to deception - aircraft can be forced to reveal their position just like air defenses. Ukraine can operate an active radar on a Osa launcher, while Buk can wait in ambush. When using active radar the aircraft are subject to inverse square law meaning that they reveal themselves before they detect their targets so it is only a viable tactic outside of NATO detection zone which covers most of western and southern Ukraine. But even then it is not viable for any prolonged period of time because it requires a lot of moving around in the bushes with the searchlight which they can't afford. So they're entirely reliant on what their satellite or ground force recon provides.


2. Aerial refueling

Russia has only eighteen aerial refueling aircraft but since Il-78s are subordinate to Long Range Aviation they nominally support strategic bombers. Su-30s and Su-35s can't carry spare tanks which leaves only Su-34 for long range missions.

Anyone who has ever seen tables for mission planning knows just how much fuel is burnt during any maneuvering even excluding combat. There's a reason why during Desert Storm F-15C flew with four AIM-7Ms and three spare tanks and did not engage until a patrolling AWACS called for it. Just staying in the air is expensive. Moving around? You can't afford it. So you don't do it unless you have to. That's the reality of air combat that is not shown in video games or movies or agitprop online. Air combat is take off, fly for a while, shoot your ordnance, hopefully don't get shot at, come back. It's very short and constrained.


3. Geographical distribution

Russia has split its air force between the military districts attempting to create strategic joint commands. This is the approximate composition of each military district - first figure is RuAF, second is Naval Aviation. It doesn't include bombers.

Ru planes units.jpg

MiG-31s can be disregarded as they are useless in the current conflict and Su-27s are not equipped with systems for proper anti-surface warfare.

You can use my thread on Desert Storm Air Campaign if you want hard data on how numbers translate into results:


The table above does not reflect availability of sufficiently trained crews and readiness of aircraft. Remember that it takes between 2 and 4 years to train a combat pilot in peacetime, and RuAF training was pathologically underfunded. Make your calculations based on dates of delivery of new aircraft as indicated in table below (MiG-29s are withdrawn):

1280px_RuAF.jpg

This is the location of the units - the map has one or two minor errors but they are not relevant for the subject which is the geographical scale and separating distances.

Russian AF in UA.jpg

In particular the Eastern MD is a logistical burden. Here's an example of what routes units from EMD have to take to reinforce RuAF in Ukraine. Consider that aerial refueling is an essential part of such operations both for fighters and transport planes carrying other materials.

Russian AF in UA_2.jpg

Air combat doesn't have frontlines but it does have boundaries. There's a point at which no amount of Zircons in the world can prevent your opponent from flying an air wing over international waters in a show of force next to one such boundary and if you have nothing to counter it without starting a major conflict you effectively lose without firing a shot.

This is why those numbers and maps matter and why the margins for acceptable losses in RuAF are microscopic.

And as for effectiveness missile strikes - this is Ukrainian air base at Ozerne from earlier in the conflict:

Ozerne markup.jpg

It definitely doesn't count as a successful military operation but it could work as modern avant-garde art. You know, the kind that forces you to challenge your preconceptions of what art should be and what it should aim for.

Don't worry. It's only factual data. You are free to ignore it and return to more winning. I heard Russia just captured the town of Veliky Mukhosransk on Seversky Pizdyets from three and a half nazis and their dog. How can they not be tired from so much winning?!
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
... that Russia doesn't understand air power and as a result it doesn't have the necessary resources and skills to conduct air operations on a level that is appropriate to this campaign. So they keep quiet and hope nobody realizes that they were all of them deceived for another ring was made and it cost all of the money for training and munitions.

Soviet Union ended 30 years ago. Russian Air Force is a solution to a political problem - not a tool for military strategy. RuAF commanders know that:
  • their air force is mostly a bluff
  • they are already taking problematic losses
  • if they attempted to fight a proper air campaign - for which they are not prepared and have not received training - the losses would quickly become unsustainable
The losses don't have to come from the enemy. There's a reason why e.g. Desert Storm air campaign lasted five weeks but not six or seven. It takes a machine effort to fly and there's a point at which planes simply fall out of the sky. Air forces know how to maintain optempo and when to quit.

Calculate like this:

After close to four months of combat operations (15 weeks = 3x Desert Storm) number of confirmed losses (destroyed/heavily damaged) to aircraft lost to excessive combat use (requiring overhaul) is at minimum 1:2. So if RuAF already lost 10 Su-34s it lost 20 Su-34s from excessive use. If it lost 13 Su-25s it temporarily lost another 26 Su-25s. If it lost 5 Su-30s it lost 10 more etc. Those are not aircraft which are in regular maintenance that takes a bit longer because of high optempo. They need total overhaul because they were used so much. The rest is available at the usual 60-70% mission capable rate.

I attached aircraft numbers so you can recalculate how many are available - especially including geographical split - after glorious liberation of 20% of a almost-failed state with no economy. Peter I is bursting with pride so much his tomb could power all of Sankt Petersburg.

People who imagine themselves knowledgeable might disagree and point to the fact that Russia has approximately four hundred new 4,5-gen fighters (Su-30SM, Su-35S, Su-34) delivered after 2010 and that should solve everything but there are many factors which enable effective use of this potential (like funding for training of crews which for years has been at very low level, but on which I have little hard data) including three crucial bottlenecks which play a particularly important role in Ukraine:


1. Situational awareness on the ground and at low altitudes within enemy territory

Russia has only nine AWACS aircraft (3 A-50 and 6 modernized A-50U). Initially they operated them in Belarus but now they have shifted to Crimea after loss of Moskva. If two A-50s are on constant patrol that's the entire AWACS fleet that RuAF has available. A-50 is also not a modern system - it's Soviet technology from the 80s. It's worse than old E-3. A-100 is in development and just one airframe has been built for testing.

To that Russia can add only about 20 obsolete Il-20s performing ELINT but these aircraft are in no way sufficient to provide the necessary information in real time. There are only two new Tu-204 ELINT platforms in service. That means Russia is flying with data late by several hours at best and once they're in the air their ability to adapt to a change in tactical situation is limited.

Russia has to fly around on the battlefield using either passive detection or active radar to find targets. Passive detection requires dedicated aircraft flying with pods but they are susceptible to deception - aircraft can be forced to reveal their position just like air defenses. Ukraine can operate an active radar on a Osa launcher, while Buk can wait in ambush. When using active radar the aircraft are subject to inverse square law meaning that they reveal themselves before they detect their targets so it is only a viable tactic outside of NATO detection zone which covers most of western and southern Ukraine. But even then it is not viable for any prolonged period of time because it requires a lot of moving around in the bushes with the searchlight which they can't afford. So they're entirely reliant on what their satellite or ground force recon provides.


2. Aerial refueling

Russia has only eighteen aerial refueling aircraft but since Il-78s are subordinate to Long Range Aviation they nominally support strategic bombers. Su-30s and Su-35s can't carry spare tanks which leaves only Su-34 for long range missions.

Anyone who has ever seen tables for mission planning knows just how much fuel is burnt during any maneuvering even excluding combat. There's a reason why during Desert Storm F-15C flew with four AIM-7Ms and three spare tanks and did not engage until a patrolling AWACS called for it. Just staying in the air is expensive. Moving around? You can't afford it. So you don't do it unless you have to. That's the reality of air combat that is not shown in video games or movies or agitprop online. Air combat is take off, fly for a while, shoot your ordnance, hopefully don't get shot at, come back. It's very short and constrained.


3. Geographical distribution

Russia has split its air force between the military districts attempting to create strategic joint commands. This is the approximate composition of each military district - first figure is RuAF, second is Naval Aviation. It doesn't include bombers.

View attachment 90521

MiG-31s can be disregarded as they are useless in the current conflict and Su-27s are not equipped with systems for proper anti-surface warfare.

You can use my thread on Desert Storm Air Campaign if you want hard data on how numbers translate into results:


The table above does not reflect availability of sufficiently trained crews and readiness of aircraft. Remember that it takes between 2 and 4 years to train a combat pilot in peacetime, and RuAF training was pathologically underfunded. Make your calculations based on dates of delivery of new aircraft as indicated in table below (MiG-29s are withdrawn):

View attachment 90522

This is the location of the units - the map has one or two minor errors but they are not relevant for the subject which is the geographical scale and separating distances.

View attachment 90520

In particular the Eastern MD is a logistical burden. Here's an example of what routes units from EMD have to take to reinforce RuAF in Ukraine. Consider that aerial refueling is an essential part of such operations both for fighters and transport planes carrying other materials.

View attachment 90519

Air combat doesn't have frontlines but it does have boundaries. There's a point at which no amount of Zircons in the world can prevent your opponent from flying an air wing over international waters in a show of force next to one such boundary and if you have nothing to counter it without starting a major conflict you effectively lose without firing a shot.

This is why those numbers and maps matter and why the margins for acceptable losses in RuAF are microscopic.

And as for effectiveness missile strikes - this is Ukrainian air base at Ozerne from earlier in the conflict:

View attachment 90524

It definitely doesn't count as a successful military operation but it could work as modern avant-garde art. You know, the kind that forces you to challenge your preconceptions of what art should be and what it should aim for.

Don't worry. It's only factual data. You are free to ignore it and return to more winning. I heard Russia just captured the town of Veliky Mukhosransk on Seversky Pizdyets from three and a half nazis and their dog. How can they not be tired from so much winning?!
we'll see with the final results then. if Russia is losing as badly as you claim then it'll only be a matter of time before "collaborators" are being hanged in Kherson/DPR/LPR and Crimea is getting carpet bombed.
 

FADH1791

Junior Member
Registered Member
Excellent video that explains why Russia is using 200k fighters for this war. In short it is all mathematics. The amount of BTGs used in the format depends how many kilometers it is. It also depends on the front whether the Russians are in a defensive or offensive posture. He also says that if depends on blood. Basically the amount of blood supply depends whether how far you can go offensively. To mobilize a million men you would need 4 million blood supplies as he states. He also goes on to explains Ukraines why Zelensky wants the UAF to stand and fight in the current frontlines. And explains why Zaluzhy(the top general of the UAF) wants the Ukrops to retreat to the Salvynsk-Kramatorsk defensive line. Each strategy brings major dilemma for the Ukraine’s. If the UAF retreats it shortens the front line but that favors the Russians as they can concentrate more BTGs in a smaller frontline which could lead to devastating results for the Ukrainian. Not only that it leads to an extra 40 BTGs Russia can use to open another front like Kharkiv or Nicolaev. If the UAF continues the Zelensky strategy the UAF gets encircled and annihilated.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
I am sensing a change in tone in MSM:
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Not sure if it's triggered by some kind of impending collapse at Donbas or something, but it feels like the media has started to lay the groundwork for cutting Zelenskyy loose.

From that Guardian article:
Ukrainian losses range from 600 to 1,000 people a day. This is a colossal reduction in the combat capability of Ukraine due to the unsuccessful attempt by the Armed Forces of Ukraine to hold the defense of Severodonetsk."

"The total number of casualties - more than 20,000 a month - raises questions about what state the Ukrainian army will be in if the war drags on until the autumn. The Russian army already controls large parts of Ukraine, and they can suspend hostilities with a territorial advantage."
 
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