The War in the Ukraine

SolarWarden

Junior Member
Registered Member
Here's my reading of the events.

OBJECTIVES:

1. strategic level

1.1. test of invasion of Russian territory

The incursion is a test of Russian doctrinal response to direct invasion.

It also shifts the perception of the event from "unimaginable" to "already happened" which is fundamental from the standpoint of motivating participants.

Likely more tests will be conducted in the future.

1.2. test of false flag operations in Crimea

Since the operations is being conducted de facto under a false flag of "Free Russia" it is also a test of viability of similar invasions into Crimea under "Free Crimea".

It is important because Crimea is the only region of Ukraine that was annexed prior to the invasion in 2022 and accepted de facto as part of Russia by the international community and remains politically controversial. "Free Crimea" is an important factor affecting any potential negotiated settlement as a deliberate destabilising factor in case of settlement disadvantageous to Ukraine.

1.3. test of intervention in Belarus

Insurgency in Belarus is only possible in case of Lukashenka's death or removal from power. Operation in Belgorod may serve as a plausible threat.

Despite the general passivity and pro-Russian bias among Belarussian population the number of Belarussians who would join such operation is greater than the number of Russians for a number of cultural and political reasons. Belarus has also more advantageous demographic composition for such operation

Poles:
View attachment 113189

Ukrainians
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An incursion into Belarus would also not only seriously hamper Russian operations from the territory but also force re-direction of assets to suppress the uprising. From NATO point of view the most crucial area is western Belarus i.e. Grodno and Brest Oblasts. The feasibility of separatism in the region is debatable. The 2020-21 protests and riots could serve as a foundation for support network.

The electoral initative from Holos indicated ~20% actual support for Tsikhanouskaya in August 2020. Currently that number would likely be higher due to Belarus' participation in the war and if geographical distribution of results is included it shows at least limited potential.
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Without Belarus Russian air operations suffer greatly and a safe zone is de facto established over most of western Ukraine so this can't be allowed.

2. operational level

2.1. test efficiency of Russian decision process


Russian response is being tested and all relevant metrics are being measured. While the incursion is taking place in Belgorod the same mechanisms will apply in Russian-occupied areas of Ukraine, only corrected for density of assets. We don't know what shape Ukrainian offensive operations will take apart from likely and plausible directions of attack along the front but those may involve screening operations or diversions to disrupt Russian response.

Invasion into Russia is the only available test of "pure decision" which will show how Russia will react when it doesn't have the ability to even the balance with fires or mass.

2.2. shaping operations for Ukrainian offensive

It is an attempt to force redirection of Russian assets from other areas including Rosgvardia and highly mobile units. Since airborne insertion has been problematic some diversion of ground assets is necessary.

3. tactical level

3.1. test simulation of uprising as a tactic

One of the major issues affecting Russian control of occupied Ukrainian regions is the susceptibility to passive and active resistance from occupied population. While all regions have active Russian collaborators and passive population accepting any authority the collaboration and passive support
is as always conditional. "Shock and awe" raid into the rear of Russian forces may be sufficient to create chaos and activate sleeper cells of Ukrainian partisans. Psy-ops like raising flags and declaring liberation of nominally Russian-controlled towns may be used along the main attack route to create chaos in Russian lines, forcing assets to be re-deployed to secure communication lines and population centers rather than reinforcing defensive positions.

Belgorod has had war condition for months and despite it the civilian security and administration have failed. Any operation in Ukraine proper will be more effective.

3.2. test maneuver as foundation of tactics

This incursion has all the characteristics of "violence of action" mindset used in Iraq in 2003 - hit and run forward. Such tactic while potent has certain minimal threshold of efficacy at which it becomes advantageous. That threshold requires testing of both the tactical potential of the enemy as well as own capabilities. So far Ukraine has not been able to test any large scale dynamic offensive operation using NATO-like tactics and equipment and both Ukraine and Russia were using traditional Soviet mass-focused tactics with only the VDV performing raids in early phase of the invasion. That influences the habits and thinking process of soldiers and commanders. If Ukraine intends to use a different type of tactics it must test them in practice against the enemy.

While everyone focuses on the fighting, the crucial stage that requires testing is concentration and maneuver. What matters most at war is not what most think.Fighting is easy. Moving in and out and communicating is difficult.

CONCLUSIONS:

1. From what I've seen the primary objectives as explained in 1-3 have all been achieved.

2. Per 1.1. the psychological barrier has been broken. It doesn't matter what Russians think about it if Ukraine and "freedom fighters" are not dissuaded from repeating such operation in the future.

3. Russia has suffered a defeat in the information domain. Information domain is not only propaganda but also the information flow that you don't see which was crucial for objectives 1 to 3 and which had clear time constraints. If I was watching this operation from a command post I'd be a very happy man to see the data that this op provided.

Russian forces couldn't locate the intruders and stop them sufficiently quickly. They also couldn't perform effective counter-operations in information domain like staging false captures of invaders, showing areas under control etc. All in all Russia has a big problem and its behaviour is predictably in line with everything we've seen since 24 Feb 2022 - fail and deny failure, repeat...

The invading force was likely far smaller than Ukrainian propaganda suggested and psy-ops online was deliberately being used to exaggerate the effect but I have reasons to believe that sleeper agents which were moved to Russian territory prior to the operation were also participating - this is indicated by evidence of random minor incidents all over the area.

It may have been also an attempt to smuggle weapons into the region which will be used to perform more attacks in the future. Sometimes the best way to bring something inside is to walk in, make a lot of noise as a distraction and just slip it out of your pocket when everyone's busy trying to grab you.

It definitely wasn't a conventional invasion to hold and control territory or even an armed recon mission so "defeating it" is as meaningless as it is most likely untrue.

The recent shootdowns of VKS aircraft were likely a test of SOF capabilities in that regard. I made quick spatial analyses and no conventional solution matched. Note the level of VKS activity in the Belgorod region. These two may be a preparatory drill for similar use of SOF for any potential push across the front to disrupt Russia air defenses by forcing threat of friendly fire. No other explanation I've seen so far makes of that incident more sense.

Contrary to what has been suggested in this thread and elsewhere it is definitely not about Bakhmut. That is likely a Russian attempt to change the perception of this operation both to shift the optics away from "Free Russia" to Ukraine and from a failure to contain and control the scale of the incursion to presenting it as a meaningless and desperate attempt to cover loss of Bakhmut.

Ukraine has defended Bakhmut far longer than it was expected to, forcing Russia to redirect assets into the area. After withdrawal the current defensive positions are still sufficient for disrupting the communications lines through Bakhmut which is the primary objective for Russian capture of the city. Ukraine may have lost Bakhmut but Russia hasn't "won" it yet per their own operational needs.



The sign on the Russian propaganda clip is clearly painted over burn marks and placement is clearly staged.

The vehicles were likely abandoned by raiders on purpose after capturing Russian equipment which would be better for raids in enemy territory. Russian artillery destroyed abandoned vehicles and then recaptured the position. However if no lines of support are intended as part of the operation due to its nature it makes no difference if Russia controls the checkpoint or not.
Markoz81 made a great argument very thorough.

When I look at this pic the thing that comes to minds is ego.

As embarrassing as it was for Russia I think the leader of this group did it for name recognition and likely start his own army just like wagners?
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Here's my reading of the events.

CONCLUSIONS:

1. From what I've seen the primary objectives as explained in 1-3 have all been achieved.

2. Per 1.1. the psychological barrier has been broken. It doesn't matter what Russians think about it if Ukraine and "freedom fighters" are not dissuaded from repeating such operation in the future.

3. Russia has suffered a defeat in the information domain. Information domain is not only propaganda but also the information flow that you don't see which was crucial for objectives 1 to 3 and which had clear time constraints. If I was watching this operation from a command post I'd be a very happy man to see the data that this op provided.

Russian forces couldn't locate the intruders and stop them sufficiently quickly. They also couldn't perform effective counter-operations in information domain like staging false captures of invaders, showing areas under control etc. All in all Russia has a big problem and its behaviour is predictably in line with everything we've seen since 24 Feb 2022 - fail and deny failure, repeat...

The invading force was likely far smaller than Ukrainian propaganda suggested and psy-ops online was deliberately being used to exaggerate the effect but I have reasons to believe that sleeper agents which were moved to Russian territory prior to the operation were also participating - this is indicated by evidence of random minor incidents all over the area.

It may have been also an attempt to smuggle weapons into the region which will be used to perform more attacks in the future. Sometimes the best way to bring something inside is to walk in, make a lot of noise as a distraction and just slip it out of your pocket when everyone's busy trying to grab you.

It definitely wasn't a conventional invasion to hold and control territory or even an armed recon mission so "defeating it" is as meaningless as it is most likely untrue.

The recent shootdowns of VKS aircraft were likely a test of SOF capabilities in that regard. I made quick spatial analyses and no conventional solution matched. Note the level of VKS activity in the Belgorod region. These two may be a preparatory drill for similar use of SOF for any potential push across the front to disrupt Russia air defenses by forcing threat of friendly fire. No other explanation I've seen so far makes of that incident more sense.

Contrary to what has been suggested in this thread and elsewhere it is definitely not about Bakhmut. That is likely a Russian attempt to change the perception of this operation both to shift the optics away from "Free Russia" to Ukraine and from a failure to contain and control the scale of the incursion to presenting it as a meaningless and desperate attempt to cover loss of Bakhmut.

Ukraine has defended Bakhmut far longer than it was expected to, forcing Russia to redirect assets into the area. After withdrawal the current defensive positions are still sufficient for disrupting the communications lines through Bakhmut which is the primary objective for Russian capture of the city. Ukraine may have lost Bakhmut but Russia hasn't "won" it yet per their own operational needs.

1. The problem with the test theory is that the perpetrators made themselves too public. Too much attention. I know you don’t hold Russia’s intelligence and security apparatus in high regard, but with all the publicity, the Russian authorities should be able to trace possible collaborators, possible hideouts, etc.

2. Regarding the shaping. The issue with this is that the force would need to be much larger to actually achieve any tactical success. If the force is larger than it will become more likely to be detected.

3. Uprising - I think that Russia’s hold on the occupied territories has never really been great to begin with. They are basically lucky that many of the possible insurgents have had years to leave in what was basically a frozen conflict leaving either active supporters or pliant passive people. Long story short, if it was going to happen, I think it would have already.

Now I don’t disagree with some of the ideas raised, there had to be real support from senior leadership as they were given easily identified Western equipment. It makes is harder to create plausible deniability. In the end, I feel like they picked the worst possible way to conduct the operation.

As I said, obviously you don't think the Russian security apparatus is very capable, but if they were, this kind of operation is far more harm than help.
 

baykalov

Senior Member
Registered Member
Markoz81 made a great argument very thorough.

When I look at this pic the thing that comes to minds is ego.

As embarrassing as it was for Russia I think the leader of this group did it for name recognition and likely start his own army just like wagners?

The last photo is shocking: a tattoo "Glory to Ukraine", a tattoo of the flag of Right Sector and a Nazi swastika on charging handle.

And the funniest thing was that one of these "Russians" circulated a video in which he talked about how the residents of Belgorod sent appeals to the Russian Volunteer Corps asking them to go and free them from Putin's tyranny.

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Deleted member 24525

Guest
Where is Russia's red line, the west has figured out that Russia has no Retaliation ability other than nukes which would be a super escalation, meaning slowly they cross all of Russia's "red lines" and all they can do is with some limited airstrikes. Russia is literally a pariah state that no one takes seriously anymore because they never act tough whenever the west takes a step closer. If they want to stop things like Russian territory incursions and fighter jets and other advanced weaponry to Ukraine, they need to show the world they are serious like at least a nuclear weapons test somewhere.
Red lines are an incursion at scale by conventional AFU troops into Crimea or internationally recognized Russian territory. Or western armed intervention. These have not happened.
 

Atomicfrog

Major
Registered Member
Red lines are an incursion at scale by conventional AFU troops into Crimea or internationally recognized Russian territory. Or western armed intervention. These have not happened.
They will cross the Redlines when Russia will react to it. Trying to put them everywhere is arguing in thin air.
 

BlackWindMnt

Captain
Registered Member
They will cross the Redlines when Russia will react to it. Trying to put them everywhere is arguing in thin air.
Let say NATO crosses the redlines are we assuming Russia can only react on the territory of Ukraine?
Or is it also safe to say that Russia can escalate or react in a different ways like providing jet fighters and air defence to Iran or Syria for example or supply China with all the NATO weapon data being gathered in Ukraine especially the HIMARS and other NATO missiles data.
 

SolarWarden

Junior Member
Registered Member
Let say NATO crosses the redlines are we assuming Russia can only react on the territory of Ukraine?
Or is it also safe to say that Russia can escalate or react in a different ways like providing jet fighters and air defence to Iran or Syria for example or supply China with all the NATO weapon data being gathered in Ukraine especially the HIMARS and other NATO missiles data.
I think what he's saying we'll know when Russia's redline is crossed when they do something but for now they should shut up with the redline threats cause it doesn't make them look good.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member

In this video, there seems to be an official concirmation that Ukraine is going to strengthen and expand their marines into a corps. In addition, According to this report,
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Currently, the Marine Corps structure contains as follows:

35th Marine Brigade named after Rear Admiral Mykhailo Ostrohradskyi;
36th Marine Brigade named after Rear Admiral Mykhailo Bilynsky;
503rd Separate Marine Battalion;
406th Artillery Brigade named after Khorunzhoy General Oleksii Almazov;
32nd Artillery Regiment;
140th Separate Reconnaissance Battalion.
The newly launched 37th and 38th Marine Brigades have also been deployed.

In fact, in terms of the number and acquired capabilities, Ukrainian marine units have already reached the size of the Corps, so now it only takes the reformation of management into a single “organism” for the MC to be fully formed.

Assuming this isn't some deceptive bluff, this piece of news is important since it may be a hint to what Ukraine actuallymay do in the future. Given the fact that the Ukrainians basically don't have a navy anymore, we know that there won't be a massive direct amphibious invasion of the Crimean peninsula. This only leaves river crossings. We have seen Ukrainians performing very small scale raids on the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant and the opposite bank of Kherson. However they aren't large scale amphibious assaults. Since the Ukrainians plan to establish a unified command of their marines, it is very much possible that a large amphibious assault is being planned. The establishment of a marine corps would allow the Ukrainians to concentrate their marines that are supported by organic artillery to cross the Dnipro river and establish a beachhead for subsequent mechanized forces to enter and maneuver to wherever they need to go. As for the more hypothetical aspects and details, I think they are better explained by History Legends (not the best and most reliable Youtuber, but he is ok):
 
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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Footage of Ukrainian speedboat sinking.


Reaction to Belgorod attack didn't go down well.



Ukrainian vehicles in the Zaporozhye area under artillery attack. Looks like Krasnopol usage.


Last moments of Bakhmut. Some footage indicates Krasnopol usage, indicating Wagner use which previously didn't happen in previous months.

 
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