Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Beyond those early times (before the 80's), ROCAF was definitely superior in the 90's to the early 2000's.

Original Su-27SK did not have any R-77 capability. F-16 always had AIM-120 capability, but inventory was held back until the R-77 was introduced with Su-30. Only later on in 2000's Su-27 was upgraded to carry R-77.

In addition, ROCAF Mirage-2000 always had active MICA (and MICA IR as well).

F-CK-1 was more capable than any domestic fighter China could produce (not counting locally assembled Su-27 which were basically CKD Lego Kits. True J-11 would not come until later in 2000's). It was also equipped with TC-2 as early as 90's.

I agree that Su-30 was pretty much the point where it started going downhill without a doubt.
So basically the less than 10 years years between F-CK1 entering service and Su-30 MKK. And still they did not have the AWAC or tanker capability required for an actual expeditionary air force.

I have to say though, Deng and Jiang were useless for the military and allowed too much corruption to happen. Them defunding the military was the actual cause of Tiananmen, they made purchases like 3rd world military dictatorships (apparently because Su-27 impressed Jiang at some airshow) and it took Hu and Xi almost 20 years to climb out of the hole.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
So basically the less than 10 years years between F-CK1 entering service and Su-30 MKK. And still they did not have the AWAC or tanker capability required for an actual expeditionary air force.

I have to say though, Deng and Jiang were useless for the military and allowed too much corruption to happen. Them defunding the military was the actual cause of Tiananmen, they made purchases like 3rd world military dictatorships (apparently because Su-27 impressed Jiang at some airshow) and it took Hu and Xi almost 20 years to climb out of the hole.

They did have E2 Hawkeye and also purchased PAVE PAWS in 2000 (It was merely delivered way behind schedule and became relatively less useful as a result)

No they do not have Tanker, but the pretense of striking back at the mainland was already dim even with a slight technological edge.

Deng and Jiang were committed to economic development over military. They didn’t defund the military as much as started reforms by divesting commercial ventures from the military. With the opening up to the world, this was a lot of potential money.

Su-27 was not some third world thing, this was a very conscious choice made by the military leadership. Russia wanted to sell the already widely exported MiG-29 to China at the time, but the Chinese leadership was unimpressed with the short range, weak radar, and reliance on ground control. The PLAAF wanted the Flanker. Russian leadership was still wary of selling their top fighter at the time since relations were only recently reestablished. According to the story, the Korean War veteran PLAAF general of partial Russian heritage spent many nights drinking with the other side to get the deal done. Also to note, this was the first time Su-27 was exported outside of USSR.

I forget the names and all the exact details, but this you can find most of the details here if you look. I believe there was a book too.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
They did have E2 Hawkeye and also purchased PAVE PAWS in 2000 (It was merely delivered way behind schedule and became relatively less useful as a result)

No they do not have Tanker, but the pretense of striking back at the mainland was already dim even with a slight technological edge.

Deng and Jiang were committed to economic development over military. They didn’t defund the military as much as started reforms by divesting commercial ventures from the military. With the opening up to the world, this was a lot of potential money.

Su-27 was not some third world thing, this was a very conscious choice made by the military leadership. Russia wanted to sell the already widely exported MiG-29 to China at the time, but the Chinese leadership was unimpressed with the short range, weak radar, and reliance on ground control. The PLAAF wanted the Flanker. Russian leadership was still wary of selling their top fighter at the time since relations were only recently reestablished. According to the story, the Korean War veteran PLAAF general of partial Russian heritage spent many nights drinking with the other side to get the deal done. Also to note, this was the first time Su-27 was exported outside of USSR.

I forget the names and all the exact details, but this you can find most of the details here if you look. I believe there was a book too.
The PLAAF general was
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who had a Russian mother and Chinese father and so is familiar with all the nuances of dealing with Russians. He knew there would be much drinking involved in talking out the Su-27 deal (Russians love to get their guests drunk and use that to drive a hard bargain, they do it to Indians all the time) and had his people search for individuals with "special talents" among the PLA and managed to find someone indeed. He was some skinny glasses wearing low level soldier who worked in the kitchen who could drink hard alcohol like water and not be affected for whatever reason. Lin Hu apparently went up to him and said "come with me, the motherland is in need of your stomach".

So they dressed him up as a member of Lin's staff complete with a senior colonel rank and had him go drinking with the 17 strong Soviet delegation and he got them all unconscious while remain standing. Next day Lin had lots of gifts repaired for the humbled and still hungover Russians and that's how PLAAF managed to get a good price on Su-27.

Apparently some time later PLAN having heard about this also borrowed him and pulled a similar thing when they were making deals with the Russians.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
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Problem with an asymmetric approach is that the Mainland can respond with 1) very long range artillery fire (whether rocket or tube) to disrupt and destroy any ground formation larger than a company (not to mention neutralizing virtually all ports and airports) 2) spam swarms of unmanned systems (of whatever domain) and loitering munitions to wreck the A2/AD assets 3) the relatively short distance of the Straits means that 21st century ISR tech will give the PLA enough data to consistently find, fix and engage hostile assets on Taiwan and its surroundings.
 

zxy_bc

Junior Member
Registered Member
So basically the less than 10 years years between F-CK1 entering service and Su-30 MKK. And still they did not have the AWAC or tanker capability required for an actual expeditionary air force.

I have to say though, Deng and Jiang were useless for the military and allowed too much corruption to happen. Them defunding the military was the actual cause of Tiananmen, they made purchases like 3rd world military dictatorships (apparently because Su-27 impressed Jiang at some airshow) and it took Hu and Xi almost 20 years to climb out of the hole.
I don't seem to catch your conclusion. What do you mean Deng and Jiang were useless for the military? (The policy of developing national economy first and allow military to endure was a resounding success. Without it they will never be the economic platform to even begin talking about modernizing the military) Allow too much corruption to happen? (Military spending is not going to go up since there's no extra money anywhere those years and military personnels had to provide for themselves. So what do they do? They open up small businesses within the military to provide for themselves. Corruption is indeed inevitable but the benefit outweighed the cons significantly, since you don't get military personnels fucking starving to death because of no money like the aftermath of Soviet Union's dissolution) Actual cause of Tiananmen? (I don't know what sources you've read but clearly it's not the Chinese nor the Western sources. So i am curious to know) The SU-27 part is already explained by Temstar I am not going to explain. Likewise the other military purchases of those years were very limited but targted nonetheless.
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't seem to catch your conclusion. What do you mean Deng and Jiang were useless for the military? (The policy of developing national economy first and allow military to endure was a resounding success. Without it they will never be the economic platform to even begin talking about modernizing the military) Allow too much corruption to happen? (Military spending is not going to go up since there's no extra money anywhere those years and military personnels had to provide for themselves. So what do they do? They open up small businesses within the military to provide for themselves. Corruption is indeed inevitable but the benefit outweighed the cons significantly, since you don't get military personnels fucking starving to death because of no money like the aftermath of Soviet Union's dissolution) Actual cause of Tiananmen? (I don't know what sources you've read but clearly it's not the Chinese nor the Western sources. So i am curious to know) The SU-27 part is already explained by Temstar I am not going to explain. Likewise the other military purchases of those years were very limited but targted nonetheless.
Jiang was actually the one who banned PLA from running any business and that dramatically cut down corruption within the PLA.

Jiang was also a very strong supporter of the J-10 program when there were many within the PLAAF who said it should be cut and the money spent on buying more Su-27 instead. Jiang insisted it should go ahead even if it would produce an inferior plane relative to Su-27 because the knowledge gained will be useful in the future.
 

zxy_bc

Junior Member
Registered Member
Jiang was actually the one who banned PLA from running any business and that dramatically cut down corruption within the PLA.

Jiang was also a very strong supporter of the J-10 program when there were many within the PLAAF who said it should be cut and the money spent on buying more Su-27 instead. Jiang insisted it should go ahead even if it would produce an inferior plane relative to Su-27 because the knowledge gained will be useful in the future.
That's why I am confused with his conclusion. lol
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't seem to catch your conclusion. What do you mean Deng and Jiang were useless for the military? (The policy of developing national economy first and allow military to endure was a resounding success. Without it they will never be the economic platform to even begin talking about modernizing the military) Allow too much corruption to happen? (Military spending is not going to go up since there's no extra money anywhere those years and military personnels had to provide for themselves. So what do they do? They open up small businesses within the military to provide for themselves. Corruption is indeed inevitable but the benefit outweighed the cons significantly, since you don't get military personnels fucking starving to death because of no money like the aftermath of Soviet Union's dissolution) Actual cause of Tiananmen? (I don't know what sources you've read but clearly it's not the Chinese nor the Western sources. So i am curious to know) The SU-27 part is already explained by Temstar I am not going to explain. Likewise the other military purchases of those years were very limited but targted nonetheless.
I'm surprised you didn't know this. In 1980's there was a common saying: those designing missiles make less money than those selling tealeaf eggs. The anger of people previously employed by the MIC - especially youth and students - who now had to contend with stagnant wages and unemployment, vs. those they saw as 'less educated', is known to be one of the leadups to the protests.

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1989年,方建平从同济大学机械学院毕业。当年,国有企业纷纷整顿、民营企业正在经历倒闭,就业形势并不美好。在这样的背景下,方建平的同学们纷纷选择留学或者从商,而方建平却选择了航天事业,进入中国航天科技集团空间推进研究所。

有一句大家熟悉的顺口溜,“造导弹不如卖茶叶蛋” ,描述的正是当年从事脑力活动的知识分子的收入远远低于体力劳动者的现象。

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Whilst these policies did promote significant growth, they also produced rapidly rising inequality and a great deal of economic (and political) insecurity and turbulence. This inequality was strange and unsettling for Chinese people not used to it, and it produced unexpected results. Suddenly esteemed social layers, such as professors, earned many times less than the nascent capitalists of very rudimentary industries – capitalists which everyone had been taught were the ‘enemies of the people’. A profound uncertainty and sense of injustice swept over large sections of society. The attitude of highly educated people, whose skills found no lucrative application in this primitive market-place, was expressed in popular sayings of the time, such as “Those who produce missiles earn less than those who sell tea eggs”, and “Those who hold scalpels earn less than those who hold eel knives”.

It was failure to address this economic issue that the students turned towards politics.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Jiang was actually the one who banned PLA from running any business and that dramatically cut down corruption within the PLA.

Jiang was also a very strong supporter of the J-10 program when there were many within the PLAAF who said it should be cut and the money spent on buying more Su-27 instead. Jiang insisted it should go ahead even if it would produce an inferior plane relative to Su-27 because the knowledge gained will be useful in the future.

PLA only started running businesses due to Deng reforms. He also only did it in 1997 after he had allowed it to occur on his watch for 8 years, and only because the situation at the time had become nearly intolerable. It wasn't that he wanted to, it was that he had to.
 

zxy_bc

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm surprised you didn't know this. In 1980's there was a common saying: those designing missiles make less money than those selling tealeaf eggs. The anger of people previously employed by the MIC - especially youth and students - who now had to contend with stagnant wages and unemployment, vs. those they saw as 'less educated', is known to be one of the leadups to the protests.

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It was failure to address this economic issue that the students turned towards politics.
The article you posted, how is that related with Tiananmen other than it's from the same period? Are you telling me that most of the students went to Tiananmen are not only from military-industrial backgrounds but also are asking for more military spendings in Tiananmen? Cause if you are saying this, you need to watch the footage of those students' slogans and their demands. (in short, they have nothing to do with military spendings, instead they are all political demands)
 
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