Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Skywatcher

Captain
All I've been able to find is a Chinese-language source that says Taiwan has under 100 HF-II mobile launchers. I've no idea if it's reliable because I have to rely on Google Translate, but if correct it would mean supplementing stocks with US platforms would be a good idea because Taiwan so far hasn't got huge numbers of its domestically produced launchers.

I'm sure they can produce more HF-II launchers (and buying domestic won't mean spending at least hundreds of millions setting up a different logistical chain).


Per the above, a different Chinese-language source said Taiwan ordered just under 250 TC-2 SAMs with 30 or so launchers. Again, take with a pinch of salt.

Thanks. Though the TC-2's limited range isn't going to be very useful for modern warfare unless used for point defense duty.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I'm sure they can produce more HF-II launchers (and buying domestic won't mean spending at least hundreds of millions setting up a different logistical chain).

Taiwan's been using the Harpoon for decades, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to integrate the mobile system.

Also whilst Taiwan can make more of its own HF-II launchers (maybe even mounting HF-III), buying external helps get the numbers up quickly. If we knew China wouldn't invade until 2035 or 2040 then perhaps it wouldn't be necessary, but we don't know if it might come sooner. Then there's the fact that the US can be fickle with arms sales. If Taiwan decided in a couple of years that it did need to supplement its AShM inventory, the State Department might block the sale. Before Trump Washington was somewhat reluctant to sell Taiwan "offensive" weapons. I don't think things will go back to the old cautious ways anytime soon, but if you're Taipei why take the chance?

Thanks. Though the TC-2's limited range isn't going to be very useful for modern warfare unless used for point defense duty.

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority are used for guarding specific facilities, even if some might be moved around to protect a pop-up AShM battery. Plus Taiwan can work to improve the range - that's what they did with the HF-IIE.

I also forgot, Taiwan bought the Avenger system some years ago (even if it's an older system), so it's not like it has no mobile defences against cruise missiles, UAVs or loitering munitions.
 
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Skywatcher

Captain
Taiwan's been using the Harpoon for decades, it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to integrate the mobile system.

Also whilst Taiwan can make more of its own HF-II launchers (maybe even mounting HF-III), buying external helps get the numbers up quickly. If we knew China wouldn't invade until 2035 or 2040 then perhaps it wouldn't be necessary, but we don't know if it might come sooner. Then there's the fact that the US can be fickle with arms sales. If Taiwan decided in a couple of years that it did need to supplement its AShM inventory, the State Department might block the sale. Before Trump Washington was somewhat reluctant to sell Taiwan "offensive" weapons. I don't think things will go back to the old cautious ways anytime soon, but if you're Taipei why take the chance?

It's a land based system, so a lot of the logistics and support equipment is going to be very different (not to

Taipei already has plenty of AShMs. They do not have an adequate medium range SAM. As resources are limited, cover the existing vulnerability instead of gilding the lily (and with a different system to boot).

I wouldn't be surprised if the majority are used for guarding specific facilities, even if some might be moved around to protect a pop-up AShM battery. Plus Taiwan can work to improve the range - that's what they did with the HF-IIE.

I also forgot, Taiwan bought the Avenger system some years ago (even if it's an older system), so it's not like it has no mobile defences against cruise missiles, UAVs or loitering munitions.

The Avenger has a range of only several kilometers. Against UCASs armed with long range ATGMs (20km), the TC-2 and Avenger are toast.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Taipei already has plenty of AShMs.

It has AShMs but not enough mobile land-based platforms. Even as it builds more launchers, it makes sense to get a trusted system to supplement domestic supplies.

The Avenger has a range of only several kilometers. Against UCASs armed with long range ATGMs (20km), the TC-2 and Avenger are toast.

I thought we were talking about protecting against cruise missiles and the like. Also you should never assume a delivery system will always be able to fire at its maximum range (in which case the current 15km range of the TC-2 would probably be fine, especially if it gets an upgrade).

Anyway, I think we're going round in circles, so we might just have to agree to disagree. I'm glad to hear a different view, so thanks.
 
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tupolevtu144

Junior Member
Registered Member
Reserve system
This doesn't really make sense. Why would you need to only reform training scheduling for older people? Typical window dressing. Taiwan requires comprehensive reform of the reserve system. It is totally broken. If the top brass is projecting a need for 250K personnel, you will never be able to fill this without conscription. The total population of the whole island is just around 23 million something similar to Canada, who's total military personnel is under 100,000. In Canada, they throw a lot of money to join, even for Reservists. If you need to serve full time for 2 years, good luck, it will never happen. They need to come up with some kind of system that works around going to school and maybe guaranteed x years private sector employment, these are probably the biggest impediments.
This is a very easy question. It's a mostly a political decision. Politicians in Taiwan knows that restoring a new conscription is literal political suicide since few are willing to serve in the military in Taiwan. As for reforming the training system for only older people the official statement is that there is a lack of manpower in conscripts (take note that only those who served 4-month "military training courses" after the abolishment of conscription are not counted as conscripts) while there is enough manpower for those who served 4-month "training courses". This is because as more and more conscripts age they are no longer fit for conscription. But there is a lot of rumor saying that the real reason why the reforms only affect older people is because DPP doesn't want to affect the young voting base who mostly vote for DPP.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
It has AShMs but not enough mobile land-based platforms. Even as it builds more launchers, it makes sense to get a trusted system to supplement domestic supplies.
By the time those Harpoons are delivered, NCSIST should be able to have built more launchers, unless they suddenly become incompetent.


I thought we were talking about protecting against cruise missiles and the like. Also you should never assume a delivery system will always be able to fire at its maximum range (in which case the current 15km range of the TC-2 would probably be fine, especially if it gets an upgrade).

Anyway, I think we're going round in circles, so we might just have to agree to disagree. I'm glad to hear a different view, so thanks.
Given ongoing Azeri successes with ATGM launches and loitering munitions, the ROCA should be going all out on countering that threat.

Yep.
 

tupolevtu144

Junior Member
Registered Member
I also forgot, Taiwan bought the Avenger system some years ago (even if it's an older system), so it's not like it has no mobile defences against cruise missiles, UAVs or loitering munitions.
If you're talking about Shorads Taiwan's military has got quite an abundance of them:

First we'll start with modern systems used by first-line troops:

1. Truck-launched TC-1 missiles called the Antelope Air Defense System

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2. Oerlikon Skyguard system (radar-controlled missile + 35mm gun system)

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3. Oerlikon 35mm twin cannon (some are coupled with the Oerlikon Skyguard system)

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4. MIM-72 Chaparral (though upgraded domestically it is very obsolete, TC-3 is designed to replace this)

f_6110126_2.jpg

5. Twin Stinger MANPADS launcher

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6. T-28 double 20mm autocannon AA

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tupolevtu144

Junior Member
Registered Member
(Following previous post)
Extremely obsolete systems only used by second-line troops:

1. Bofors 40mm gun (stationed in Taiping Island currently operated by the CG, it can be operated by the military again if the military is to return to the island in the future)
unnamed (5).jpg

2. M42 Duster (stationed in Kinmen and Matsu Islands)
8089084908_406f09b01e_b.jpg

Future systems:

1. An unknown radar-operated 40mm(?) autocannon system that seems to be coupled together with the new TC-2 launcher
pog3-fyixiay8103956.jpg
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
I don't see why ROC officers would change their loyalties on the basis of having a trip to China. It's not like Taiwan is North Korea and they'll go "oh my God, our leaders are lying, we're so backward and poor". And what are Chinese people going to say - "hey, you need to start following Chairman Xi, he's the best thing since Mao. You don't need democracy when you can have a dictator for life"?



China can't object to other countries making free trade pacts. Even it knows that. It can object to arms sales to Taiwan. Obama was worried about North Korea, and arms sales were something China could leverage with the vague promise of assistance for US foreign policy. Obama could have presented upgrading the existing F-16s as a compromise.

Whereas saying they'd retaliate over the TPP would have got an angry response even from Obama. It would have been the equivalent to objecting to domestic economic reforms on the basis it strengthened the US and made it harder for China to get an advantage.



So now the ROCAF doesn't have any pilots or ground crews?

At the rate we're going, in a few months someone on SDF is going to claim that Taiwan doesn't have any active personnel in its armed forces and the people who take part in national day marches are paid actors. :rolleyes:

I'd be willing to accept that some sections of the Taiwanese military could have low readiness rates due to shortages, but they can't all be simulatenously affected to the same degree.



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It's one poll, but it suggests opinions might be changing - no doubt thanks to a certain neighbour adopting a more aggressive posture.

I don't think that Taiwan will reintroduce conscription given it's already worked on transforming to a volunteer service. But it might make further reforms to help fill the manpower gap if they can't close it by other means.

Your extreme and absurd rhetoric is just plain stupid, to be frank.

Previously, you brought up shooting civilians which is a strawman on top of being completely irrelevant to the conversation.
Now you bring up Xi Jinping/dictatorships, again totally impertinent. Honestly, how do you end up picturing Taiwan as the analogue to North Korea in this?

You yourself had said a rogue Chinese Nationalist in Taiwan could steal the secrets a few pages ago. I am actually agreeing with this idea, but now you are just acting childish.

Don't debate facts with ideologically centered imaginary counter-narratives.

FACT: Nine years ago Lo Hsien-che, a ROC Maj. General was arrested. A General, not some low level grunt. There are more recent stories of other personnel being arrested. You can search for others yourself, there's usually at least one story a year.

FACT: Increased person to person exchanges will increase vulnerability to espionage. It could be simply exchanging money, it could be illicit affairs, whatever. I'm actually assuming most officers are probably discouraged from travelling to mainland. If it makes you feel better, this can affect PRC too, but owing to the opacity of the media and security apparatus, we won't hear about it. Furthermore, this was in specific reference to the F-35 anyway.

FACT: Greater Chinese nationalism is an issue unique to China-Taiwan relations.

FACT: TPP was a far greater counter move than a handful of fighters (already outclassed by J-11 anyway from a strategic standpoint).

ROC Armed forces personnel shortages are not new. I've posted articles on this before. Some sources have some combat units at half strength. Granted, SLAM-ER won't affect readiness since it is just equipping F-16, but something like coastal Harpoon would. I mentioned it before, a new weapon system will require newly trained personnel, logistics and organizational groups. Even if you have all personnel cross trained in both coastal defense HF-2 battery and Harpoon, it can't increase the effective strength since you are just splitting the existing personnel across more units. I am not imagining stupid things like paid actors or spouting off some "great glory to the PLA" rhetoric. Again, this is just a fact.

You can cite all the opinion polls you want. The proof will be in action. Would the government admit abandoning conscription is a mistake (granted that it was done by a KMT administration)? The move to volunteer force is flailing (yes, flailing like a person drowning), the numbers just aren't there. This has been discussed to death already.
 
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