Taiwan Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Mr T

Senior Member
They already have mobile launchers for the HF-II

How many, though? Also, do we know the quality of the mobile radar stations?

More importantly, is the HF-II really the equivalent of an RGM-84L-4? The HF-II went into production in the early 1990s, and I'm not sure how many times the missile has been upgraded. Whereas Block 2 was introduced only about a decade ago, so it wouldn't be surprising if it's a more advanced missile.

This is looking like a giant waste of money (use the money to buy SLARAAMs instead), not to mention a logistical hassle (the operational case for maximizing the number of AShM types is a lot weaker compared to SAM diversity).

I've seen people argue that more anti-ship missiles is the way to go because China can out-build Taiwan in terms of ballistic/cruise missiles, so it'll never have enough SAM batteries because you need to launch multiple interceptors to be sure of destroying the target. Whereas there's only so much the PLAN can do to protect its shipping.

I've seen SLAMRAAM mentioned in the past but I doubt it would be cheap. Taiwan has been producing Sky Bow 2 and 3 for some time now, and if they're going to be spamming SAMs it would be better to do the cheaper domestic ones.

Given that there are only 4 radars, those Harpoons are going to be pretty degraded (if not useless) if those radars get knocked out.

Where did you get four radars from? The DSCA notification says 25 radar trucks and makes no reference to separate radar units, which would imply it's 25 radars in total.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Others are comparing to the lower price of 80 mil/F-35.

Who's getting the F-35 for that price? Japan's DSCA notification had 105 F-35s coming in at $23 billion. There's no way a non-partner like Taiwan would get them at USAF prices.

Oftentimes officers' motivation to make a military career has some family history involved. For Taiwan, this means KMT and thus Chinese Nationalism is a big part. If they feel the Taiwanese government is moving away from this ideal, then their loyalty will move towards the PRC.

Old officers who remember the "glory days" of shooting unarmed protesters might feel some sort of affinity with the PRC, but there's no reason that that officers today would have loyalty towards China. Even the current Chief of the General Staff was born long after the KMT fled to Taiwan. The idea that a desire to unify with China is passed down the generations is illogical given that all polls show identification as Chinese has dropped to record low levels and the majority of Taiwanese identify exclusively as Taiwanese.

Besides, if officers really were having feelings for the past handed down then they'd more likely be taught emnity towards the PLA for humiliating their grandfathers in the civil war. After all I keep hearing from Chinese netizens that Chinese people have "long memories" when they're insulted and will "be patient" when it comes to paying others back.

Angering PRC, they will get angry even if you just sell hot dogs to ROC, so what?

Ask Obama. He wouldn't sell new F-16s apparently because he was told by advisors that it would be a "red line" for Beijing. Looks like that was an empty threat, but he wasn't exactly courageous when it came to foreign policy.

Why would you need to only reform training scheduling for older people?

Taiwan's making a number of other changes and examining others like increasing the length of basic service. They're not just making the bi-annual training annual and then deciding that's all they need to do.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
How many, though? Also, do we know the quality of the mobile radar stations?

More importantly, is the HF-II really the equivalent of an RGM-84L-4? The HF-II went into production in the early 1990s, and I'm not sure how many times the missile has been upgraded. Whereas Block 2 was introduced only about a decade ago, so it wouldn't be surprising if it's a more advanced missile.
The HF-II radar station can't be that bad, otherwise it would have never been adopted in the numbers that we've seen.

It probably has been upgraded a reasonable amount, especially since it's been proliferated to surface warships.

Your guess is good as mine, granted.


I've seen people argue that more anti-ship missiles is the way to go because China can out-build Taiwan in terms of ballistic/cruise missiles, so it'll never have enough SAM batteries because you need to launch multiple interceptors to be sure of destroying the target. Whereas there's only so much the PLAN can do to protect its shipping.
Never mind ballistic missiles (which SLAMRAAMs can't really do much about), medium range SAMs like the SLAMRAAMs can target cruise missiles, more importantly (as demonstrated by ongoing Azeri strikes) loitering munitions and drones of all kinds. Those HF-II (and Harpoons) mobile launchers aren't going to be much use if they're getting whacked.

I've seen SLAMRAAM mentioned in the past but I doubt it would be cheap. Taiwan has been producing Sky Bow 2 and 3 for some time now, and if they're going to be spamming SAMs it would be better to do the cheaper domestic ones.
Sky Bow II and III are long range systems.

Taipei has no medium range SAMs to deal with drones/loitering munitions/cruise missiles.

Apparently the TC-2 has a range of only 15km. The SLAMRAAM-ER apparently has a range of about 40km. Buying the SLAMRAAM ER at least would fill up the gap while NCSIST develops a domestic equivalent.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

Mr T

Senior Member
The HF-II radar station can't be that bad, otherwise it would have never been adopted in the numbers that we've seen.

That's my fault, I didn't mean to suggest that it was bad, just that the US option may be better. In any event, Taiwan doesn't have a lot of options when it comes to anti-ship missiles, and I don't know if the Harpoon with mobile launchers was offered in the past.

Even if an HF-II isn't as good as Harpoon Block II, it would have still made sense for Taiwan to get some domestic missiles as they're cheaper and helped develop better missiles like the HF-III. Having a mixture of anti-ship missiles means a better chance of something working.

More importantly do you have numbers on mobile HF-II launchers and assigned missiles? Taiwan has made a lot of HF-IIs, but if they're mostly assigned to the Navy, Airforce and fixed batteries it doesn't mean much as to the status of mobile batteries.

Those HF-II (and Harpoons) mobile launchers aren't going to be much use if they're getting whacked.

That's true, but they still need to be detected and targetted.

As for the TC-2 land-launcher, you know I forgot about that. 15km isn't a lot but if it's protecting a specific platform like the ASM mobile launchers that should be enough. Plus it's been a long time since I've heard SLAMRAAM offered to Taiwan. It may be that Raytheon wanted a stupidly large price due to the fact it didn't get any orders, and Taipei thought "fuck it, we'll just build more TC-2 launchers and improve them in due course". Although maybe, just maybe, Taiwan might get interested now Qatar has effectively paid for the production line to be opened.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Who's getting the F-35 for that price? Japan's DSCA notification had 105 F-35s coming in at $23 billion. There's no way a non-partner like Taiwan would get them at USAF prices.



Old officers who remember the "glory days" of shooting unarmed protesters might feel some sort of affinity with the PRC, but there's no reason that that officers today would have loyalty towards China. Even the current Chief of the General Staff was born long after the KMT fled to Taiwan. The idea that a desire to unify with China is passed down the generations is illogical given that all polls show identification as Chinese has dropped to record low levels and the majority of Taiwanese identify exclusively as Taiwanese.

Besides, if officers really were having feelings for the past handed down then they'd more likely be taught emnity towards the PLA for humiliating their grandfathers in the civil war. After all I keep hearing from Chinese netizens that Chinese people have "long memories" when they're insulted and will "be patient" when it comes to paying others back.



Ask Obama. He wouldn't sell new F-16s apparently because he was told by advisors that it would be a "red line" for Beijing. Looks like that was an empty threat, but he wasn't exactly courageous when it came to foreign policy.



Taiwan's making a number of other changes and examining others like increasing the length of basic service. They're not just making the bi-annual training annual and then deciding that's all they need to do.

I stated clearly that we don’t know the real cost of the F-35 yet. JSF Partners and US Are buying at 80 to 100 mil each.

I won’t get into the identity politics too much (even though I admittedly brought it up) because it’s not news. What I was trying to point out is that you have a unique situation. I am not delusional in thinking there is a secret huge 5th column

Even in those identity surveys, they usually have a third to a quarter of respondents that clearly identify as Chinese. Basically I’m trying to point out that these people could be over represented in the military.

On top of this, unlike the situation like North Korea and South Korea, you can get on a direct flight from Taipei to Beijing, so there is an open exchange of people.

Do you honestly think Obama was concerned with Chinese feelings? His TPP was probably more of a concern to PRC than a handful of fighters.

The problem with their reform is that it’s ignoring the real manpower issues. Changing the type of training and amount for a certain tranche of conscripts isn’t going to do anything.

This is why I’m so critical of their overspending on something SLAM-ER. Toys are great, but there’s no one to use them.

Even PLA has gone through numerous and sometimes painful reforms. Think of the 90’s when the commercial enterprises were cut out. That must have pissed a lot of people off.

Who in Taiwan will declare ending conscription was a mistake? It’s political suicide, but also reality. If no one will face this reality, then no one will come up with a sustainable system.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
More importantly do you have numbers on mobile HF-II launchers and assigned missiles? Taiwan has made a lot of HF-IIs, but if they're mostly assigned to the Navy, Airforce and fixed batteries it doesn't mean much as to the status of mobile batteries.

I'm afraid I don't.

That's true, but they still need to be detected and targeted.
With advances in AI and airborne sensors, that's getting easier and easier.

As for the TC-2 land-launcher, you know I forgot about that. 15km isn't a lot but if it's protecting a specific platform like the ASM mobile launchers that should be enough. Plus it's been a long time since I've heard SLAMRAAM offered to Taiwan. It may be that Raytheon wanted a stupidly large price due to the fact it didn't get any orders, and Taipei thought "fuck it, we'll just build more TC-2 launchers and improve them in due course". Although maybe, just maybe, Taiwan might get interested now Qatar has effectively paid for the production line to be opened.

I don't think the TC-2 SAM ever took off because of the range issue (15km isn't much in the age of extended range air launched ATGMs).
 

Mr T

Senior Member
On top of this, unlike the situation like North Korea and South Korea, you can get on a direct flight from Taipei to Beijing, so there is an open exchange of people.

I don't see why ROC officers would change their loyalties on the basis of having a trip to China. It's not like Taiwan is North Korea and they'll go "oh my God, our leaders are lying, we're so backward and poor". And what are Chinese people going to say - "hey, you need to start following Chairman Xi, he's the best thing since Mao. You don't need democracy when you can have a dictator for life"?

Do you honestly think Obama was concerned with Chinese feelings? His TPP was probably more of a concern to PRC than a handful of fighters.

China can't object to other countries making free trade pacts. Even it knows that. It can object to arms sales to Taiwan. Obama was worried about North Korea, and arms sales were something China could leverage with the vague promise of assistance for US foreign policy. Obama could have presented upgrading the existing F-16s as a compromise.

Whereas saying they'd retaliate over the TPP would have got an angry response even from Obama. It would have been the equivalent to objecting to domestic economic reforms on the basis it strengthened the US and made it harder for China to get an advantage.

This is why I’m so critical of their overspending on something SLAM-ER. Toys are great, but there’s no one to use them.

So now the ROCAF doesn't have any pilots or ground crews?

At the rate we're going, in a few months someone on SDF is going to claim that Taiwan doesn't have any active personnel in its armed forces and the people who take part in national day marches are paid actors. :rolleyes:

I'd be willing to accept that some sections of the Taiwanese military could have low readiness rates due to shortages, but they can't all be simulatenously affected to the same degree.

Who in Taiwan will declare ending conscription was a mistake? It’s political suicide

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It's one poll, but it suggests opinions might be changing - no doubt thanks to a certain neighbour adopting a more aggressive posture.

I don't think that Taiwan will reintroduce conscription given it's already worked on transforming to a volunteer service. But it might make further reforms to help fill the manpower gap if they can't close it by other means.
 
Last edited:

Mr T

Senior Member
I'm afraid I don't.

All I've been able to find is a Chinese-language source that says Taiwan has under 100 HF-II mobile launchers. I've no idea if it's reliable because I have to rely on Google Translate, but if correct it would mean supplementing stocks with US platforms would be a good idea because Taiwan so far hasn't got huge numbers of its domestically produced launchers.

I don't think the TC-2 SAM ever took off because of the range issue (15km isn't much in the age of extended range air launched ATGMs).

Per the above, a different Chinese-language source said Taiwan ordered just under 250 TC-2 SAMs with 30 or so launchers. Again, take with a pinch of salt.
 

Nobonita Barua

Senior Member
Registered Member
I don't see why ROC officers would change their loyalties on the basis of having a trip to China. It's not like Taiwan is North Korea and they'll go "oh my God, our leaders are lying, we're so backward and poor". And what are Chinese people going to say - "hey, you need to start following Chairman Xi, he's the best thing since Mao. You don't need democracy when you can have a dictator for life"?
Sure sure. That's why in leisure time , i am pretty sure instead of spending in dubai, Taiwanese go to Rwanda, Uganda, Sudan to show their support for democracy.
Also, they don't need a dictator for life. Who wants to live under a dictator when they all can be dictators like their 350 million overlords? Isn't that correct?
no doubt thanks to a certain neighbor adopting a more aggressive posture.
Indeed.
I am pretty sure Taiwanese islanders would like some democratic bases of US,UK in china, just to make sure human rights is okay of course, no big deal.
By the way, democracy reminds me, There is some very ugly thing that is going on in both Kashmir & US. I don't remember Taiwanese "democracy" loving islanders ever said a thing about black people or kashmiris.


When will you stop BSing?
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
Sure sure. That's why in leisure time , i am pretty sure instead of spending in dubai, Taiwanese go to Rwanda, Uganda, Sudan to show their support for democracy.
Also, they don't need a dictator for life. Who wants to live under a dictator when they all can be dictators like their 350 million overlords? Isn't that correct?

Indeed.
I am pretty sure Taiwanese islanders would like some democratic bases of US,UK in china, just to make sure human rights is okay of course, no big deal.
By the way, democracy reminds me, There is some very ugly thing that is going on in both Kashmir & US. I don't remember Taiwanese "democracy" loving islanders ever said a thing about black people or kashmiris.


When will you stop BSing?

Yes I was waiting for someone to call him out. Otherwise people might think I'm picking on him.
 
Top