Russian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Inst said:

If the first flight took place last year, the MiG-29 project implies it'll take 5 years for this to be introduced and enter the hands of export partners, or 2025, or possibly 2023 if the Indians get LRIP.

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It's comical how you use Mig-29 as an example instead of the more recent Mig-35 or Su-57 development and induction timeline. I guess using the current pace of russian's aircraft development wouldn't fit your narrative, would it?

Judging by those more recent aircrafts, this thing would be joining service by around 2035, which is also around the time China would introduce its 6th gen aircraft. You can even argue on not just aircrafts, other sectors like armata or the ak-12 also faces similar problems of delays and low production numbers. The russia of today shouldn't be equated with the old soviet union and its cold war era's pace of tech development.

ougoah said:

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This rendering might be somewhat close to what's under the tarp. No horizontal stabilisers, single high thrust engine and extremely forward positioned intakes. Looks a lot nicer than the F-35 and without the horizontal stabilisers, would be stealthier if other factors equal.

Question is how developed the program is. Is it a flyable demonstrator like 2010 PAKFA andn 2011 J-20 flight test prototypes? Far less developed or far more ready? Definitely an interesting new fighter. Sukhoi is smashing it.

BTW @Inst if you look at photos, it is clearly at least F-35 sized overall and about J-10 length. Definitely larger than the light weight fighters. It needs to accommodate decently sized internal bays. I say light weight 5th gen is a bad idea because of payload and range limits. No one has bothered developing a light weight 5th gen. The smallest are high thrust single engine or mid thrust twin engine. If this is available for purchase soon and priced well, it's going to be popular because there are no alternatives. J-xy isn't for sale. Su-57, J-20, F-22 are not for sale... well Su-57 isn't yet. FC-31 requires user to complete according to their specs and would cost a lot more and more time. J-xy (China's development out of FC-31) isn't going to be available. Don't listen to Pakistani guys saying it surely is. Only unfinished FC-31 is available, not PLAN's carrier J-xy.

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Lets be fully transparent. Any russian achievement in aerospace should be lauded and supported by the chinese technology /political community. Every fighter jet sold by Russia to Thailand, India, middle east, is one less jet that can be sold by nazi america to further their own MIC. While china has differences with other countries that have been mentioned previously, none of them represent both an existential threat to both the chinese national as well as to our personal families back home as America emodies. Make no mistake that the US is a PERSONAL threat, not some obscure titanic struggle between superpowers.

I have faith in the inguinity and capabilities of russian scientists and its industrial capabilities.

j17wang said:

Lets be fully transparent. Any russian achievement in aerospace should be lauded and supported by the chinese technology /political community. Every fighter jet sold by Russia to Thailand, India, middle east, is one less jet that can be sold by nazi america to further their own MIC. While china has differences with other countries that have been mentioned previously, none of them represent both an existential threat to both the chinese national as well as to our personal families back home as America emodies. Make no mistake that the US is a PERSONAL threat, not some obscure titanic struggle between superpowers.

I have faith in the inguinity and capabilities of russian scientists and its industrial capabilities.

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But the problem with this thinking is that those nations mentioned aren't even offered or allowed American F-35.

Lauded and supported? Well sure in the sense that it gives the western powers more to think and worry about. Russia is an alternative path in both geopolitics and military acquisitions for many nations wishing to find partners and suppliers. It is a powerful one with capability beyond those of many nations. These remain good things for China not only for politics but for militarily strategic reasons. Where it isn't so good is high tech weapons being sold to India and the risk of them being used against China. Regardless of the scale and damage, it is undesirable. Of course Russia is free to supply whoever they want. These shouldn't necessarily be diplomatically voiced against them unless the threat is present and great. It is up to China itself to ensure even if India inducted hundreds of Su-57 and Checkmates in future, China would be three steps ahead in every worthwhile domain. More ideally, India and China slowly repair and create decent relations. Although I think this is unlikely in our lifetime for reasons I don't feel like exploring. Westerners and Indians would prefer to pin blame (whatever things may be) squarely and absolutely on China and Chinese people regardless of facts and nuance.

Russia and China are both doing each other favours for standing up against western elites. Two giants standing against their will is better than one. On that front, any Russian achievement indeed ought to be celebrated. India buying Russian weapons also isn't quite the threat it appears. China can access as much if not more of what Russia offers others. It can out-pay India for details and information if it ever became necessary. It can even out-buy India if we're talking about a situation where it can only apply the same military solution in response to India. There's also the expectation that Russia will be using something different to what they export. Information is half the battle and in this domain, China can neutralise a Russian sourced Indian threat in more ways and greater depth than India could against China. For one thing, intel on Chinese hardware can only be found through China whereas for the right money and motivations, Russia will probably be willing to reveal information if it ever came to choosing between China and India, between $x and $x^1/n. However China Russian politics may shift in future depending on western threat to both. Some Indians are already making it out that acquisition of this fighter (in future) will immediately put them ahead of PLAAF

If it ever came down to India either acquiring western 5th gen or 5+gen fighters or Russia ones, I'd much rather India end up buying Russian ones. China has little to no leverage and leeway in ascertaining any important detail directly if it is a western fighter. At most it will need to conduct espionage and cyberwarfare to find information, weaknesses, strengths etc. With Russia, it can hold some negotiations and make it worthwhile for Russia to throw whoever under the bus in exchange for even greater benefits. As long as others don't have the ability to develop and manufacture their own, they will have only the choice of buying western, russian or chinese. China can guarantee Russia their market in exchange and western means politics. So there you have it. Ain't no choice but less than perfect ones. They will still buy Russian don't you worry. China will have nothing much to gain by stepping on anyone in this domain. Self defense and continued development is primary objective of China's own MIC. It makes money elsewhere.

Being thrown under the bus is part and parcel of these deals. Purchasing nations understand (they should) the limitations. Kill switches, backdoors, plants and trackers etc are all there always. Export versions are strategically modified, always. Well for complex, strategic, and high tech weaponry at least so not MBTs but even then western and Soviet ones usually were and are downgraded apparently.

Customers that have alternatives (domestic solutions) will typically not consider importing. The ones that remain have no choice in the matter. If it isn't Russia throwing them under the bus, it would be the seller they picked. This is partly why acquisitions are heavily politicised as they factor in these risks. India has been moving away slowly from Russian based hardware and diversifying since the 1990s (programs and objectives at least) not only or necessarily because Indian, French and Israeli inputs were superior. They can't fill every gap but for large scale and strategically important stuff, they'd need assurances from action. The further up the chain you move, the more domesticated it is. I would imagine there isn't a single foreign component in Indian WMD systems.

This cartoon sums up the last few pages of this thread very well...

by78 said:

This cartoon sums up the last few pages of this thread very well...

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What is it meant to suggest and how is that summarising the last few pages?

Members are speculating sensibly. The cartoon seems to insinuate that Russia is far behind China on technology related to fighter aircraft and the Chinese observers are being dismissive while the Russian owner looks on with clear lack of enthusiasm either at those observers or the project or both.

I get that China is actually these days revealing only shreds of what they are capable of (unless reveals are necessary or inescapable) while Russia at least by western propaganda, is portrayed as the threat that is neutralised and never to pose as a technological competitor. The reality is that Russia is quite a bit more capable than the west presents it. China too obviously if you ignore the fear mongering pieces. I just don't understand this cartoon and its motivations. The motivating force seem to either know a lot about things in both countries or just want to troll Russians and hype up China's efforts which is quite a pointless endeavor.

ougoah said:

What is it meant to suggest and how is that summarising the last few pages?

Members are speculating sensibly. The cartoon seems to insinuate that Russia is far behind China on technology related to fighter aircraft and the Chinese observers are being dismissive while the Russian owner looks on with clear lack of enthusiasm either at those observers or the project or both.

I get that China is actually these days revealing only shreds of what they are capable of (unless reveals are necessary or inescapable) while Russia at least by western propaganda, is portrayed as the threat that is neutralised and never to pose as a technological competitor. The reality is that Russia is quite a bit more capable than the west presents it. China too obviously if you ignore the fear mongering pieces. I just don't understand this cartoon and its motivations. The motivating force seem to either know a lot about things in both countries or just want to troll Russians and hype up China's efforts which is quite a pointless endeavor.

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I don't know how you got the impression that the cartoon is somehow denigrating Russia in any way. All it shows – at least to me – was the new Russian fighter under wraps, with lively international speculation on its dimensions, appearance, specs, and so on. The bear looks somewhat annoyed or even amused by all the murmur, as one would expect. If anything, the cartoon depicts the reality of the ongoing discussions.

Latest photo:

Bob Smith said:

The F-35 program costs as much as the annual GDP of Russia.

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It's a self-inflicted injury*, though.

*injury not in a sense that there is anything wrong with f-35 per se, but in a sense that a single5th gen aircraft, heavily based on already existing tech, can be indeed made for very reasonable money. And as of now, there are no indications that it will be bad because of it.

by78 said:

I don't know how you got the impression that the cartoon is somehow denigrating Russia in any way. All it shows – at least to me – was the new Russian fighter under wraps, with lively international speculation on its dimensions, appearance, specs, and so on. The bear looks somewhat annoyed or even amused by all the murmur, as one would expect. If anything, the cartoon depicts the reality of the ongoing discussions.

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I assumed both observers are representing China but now that's not as clear. There's no reason for there to be a tiger and a panda to symbolise Chinese observers. The panda obviously represents China but only the figure wearing the panda. The tiger is labeled with 王 so might be used to represent the US. I didn't make that connection before because I associated the Tiger with either China or India. India is no 王 but the US would have been more appropriately represented with an eagle.

You are right though. It isn't denigrating Russia at all. I thought it was earlier because of the bear's expression and the sniggering from the figure wearing the tiger. Also the fact they're dressed far better to indicate superior position?