PRC VCE and low bypass engines (fighters, tactical jets, UAVs, others)

latenlazy

Brigadier
If mods will allow me to triple post (sorry) I can simplify the contentions here for lay audiences who don’t want to peruse giant blocks of text.

1) All else held equal does more heat = more work? Yes.
2) Is it better to do the same amount of work with less heat or with more heat? It’s better to do the same amount of work with less heat if possible.

Assuming that your turbine inlet temperature is a chosen constrained factor, can you thus conclude that an engine with lower turbine inlet temperature is able to do less work? No. You can also do more work with less heat if you are more mechanically efficient.

If the “work” here is per unit mass specific thrust is it the turbine temp in the system that is determining per unit mass specific thrust? No. Your “work” is not solely defined by the total heat in the system, but how much total heat you can convert to mechanical work. How is your total heat converted to mechanical work? It is converted to mechanical work by compressing air to drive up a pressure differential between inlet and outlet. How do you get a greater pressure differential under a total heat limit? You get a greater pressure differential under a total heat limit with more mechanically and fluid-dynamically efficient compression. Is per unit mass thrust, the work we care about in the system, a function of pressure difference or heat difference? It is a function of pressure difference.

Hope that clears things up.
 
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gwel

New Member
Registered Member
Where did you learn your physics buddy?

Mechanical engineering course at university.

Dumping more fuel to reach a target temperature is less fuel efficient.

We are not trying to reach a target temperature. We're limited in how much fuel we can dump into an engine by the allowable TIT.
If the allowable TIT was higher, we could reduce the amount of cooling air we need to squeeze through the compressor, which would dramatically increase fuel efficiency.
We would simply build a much smaller engine, run it at much higher TIT, and generate the same thrust with vastly less fuel used.
Or, if we keep the engine the same size, yes we would increase fuel consumption, but we would raise the thrust so dramatically that we would actually improve fuel efficiency since the thrust would raise much more than fuel consumption.
So specific fuel consumption per thrust produced would go down.


Your turbine and your propulsive stream is driven by the expansion of air from the combustor outlet.
Yes, and, notably, not from the expansion of air the compressor compressed like you previously suggested by implying the compressor does useful work. If that was the case, then we could forgo injecting fuel at all and have our perpetuum mobile.

The total pressure change from combustor outlet to turbine is what drives your turbine and also your propulsive mass.

Not pressure, enthalpy. You are ignoring volume. Pressure can trivially be manipulated by reducing or increasing the diameter.

The Brayton cycle efficiency is indeed tied to the pressure ratio (Pr), but not because pressure is the energy source. It’s because a higher pressure ratio creates a larger spread between the compressor and turbine.

The fundamental efficiency of a jet engine (Brayton Cycle) is:

Efficiency = 1 - [ 1 / (Pr ^ ((k-1)/k)) ]

This higher ratio allows for a much higher temperature drop across the turbine relative to the temperature rise in the compressor. You aren't "driving" the engine with pressure. You are using pressure to create a state where the heat expansion does more work than the compression cost.

Why dump more fuel to reach the same stream energy when you can use less?

You can think of it the other way around. Keep the amount of fuel exactly the same, but reduce the compressor size and reduce the airflow to raise TIT and approach ideal stoichiometric ratio.
This would reduce compressor parasitic load dramatically, thus we could reduce turbine load dramatically and make the turbine smaller. The turbine would suck less mechanical energy from the gas stream, so we have more "turbojet" thrust.
Or we keep extracting the same amount of energy from the turbine and send it to a fan, which produces thrust more efficiently, hence why you see fuel economy optimized commerical engines with gigantic bypass ratios. Minimal turbojet thrust, high fan thrust.

Or you could also reduce the fuel quantity you inject, save fuel, and build a smaller engine.
Increasing TIT and reducing compressor outlet temperature is always leading to good things in terms of performance. It is up to design decisions if that is used for more thrust, more fuel economy, etc.

What you care about ultimately isn’t the temperature of the stream but the total pressure expansion.

Yes but more bang means more heat and that means more expansion. It's not like someone is waving a magic wand to expand gasses, it is made happen by injecting fuel and burning it ... no free lunch.

3. To circumvate the turbine material limit, we bleed air from the compressor and shove it directly to the turbine for cooling. The problem is that is inefficient, because to compress air you need energy, which is taken from the gasses that passes the turbine.

This is an auxiliary system not essential to the main mechanism producing thrust, and beside the actual point of contention.

No it is crucial and at the core of your misunderstanding. If we could raise the allowable TIT to the maximum combustion temperature the fuel can provide, we could reduce this "bleed air" as he called it to zero, thus reducing the compressor load dramatically. This would mean that the fuel we burn can do a lot more useful work, like producing thrust.

Higher air mass (actually more precise to say more compressed mass) = more efficient combustion for lower fuel mix.

The combustion efficiency increase (if any) is vastly smaller than the losses created by having to compress it in the first place.
Try to quantify these on an example engine, frankly any engine, and you will see the error in your ways.

High pressure is not only defined by high temp. What you care about at the end is not the temperature gain but the pressure difference from inlet to outlet.

What else but increase in temperature by fuel burn would yield to useful work?
As I said before, you care about enthalpy change, pressure alone is not a useful metric.

Mechanical compression is also driving your pressure difference from inlet to outlet, not only added heat from combustion. Another way to put it is that you can have propulsion with only compression alone (a fan) but you can’t have propulsion with only combustion alone (is a campfire propelling anything?), because it is pressure, not heat, that is driving your propulsion system (and also your turbine).

A rocket, also part of the family of reaction mass engines you see me so unknowledgeable in, do not do any compression whatsoever. Only combustion. Yet they seem to produce plenty of propulsion.
I suppose your fan gets its mechanical energy by magic?

Adding heat at a constant volume (or in a restricted flow) increases pressure and/or velocity. Again, that is how we get useful work into the system.

A fan is a way to move air, but it isn't an engine. If compression alone provided propulsion, we wouldn't need fuel tanks. We would just spin the compressor with a hand-crank.
The only reason a jet engine works is that the heat from combustion expands the air, making it do more work on the way out (turbine) than it took to squeeze it on the way in (compressor). A campfire doesn't propel anything because it isn't in a high-pressure duct. A rocket, however, is a "campfire" in a duct, and it seems to move just fine without a compressor.
You are confusing the propulsor (fan/nozzle) with the prime mover (the heat cycle). Without the heat, the pressure from the compressor is just borrowed energy that you have to pay back with interest.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Mechanical engineering course at university.

If they taught you compression is not essential to the Brayton cycle then you should ask for your money back. You’re getting tangled up in all sorts of details while completely missing the fundamental mechanics.

You are confusing the propulsor (fan/nozzle) with the prime mover (the heat cycle). Without the heat, the pressure from the compressor is just borrowed energy that you have to pay back with interest.
You are confusing the heat cycle for the mechanical work.

Yes, and, notably, not from the expansion of air the compressor compressed like you previously suggested by implying the compressor does useful work. If that was the case, then we could forgo injecting fuel at all and have our perpetuum mobile.
Build an engine without compression and see how much work you’re getting out of it lol. It’s almost like you don’t know what a fan is.
 
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gwel

New Member
Registered Member
More compression means more available air mass that you can spend on more bleed air if you want.

Bleed air is a confusing term for this. The compressor moves more air than required for efficient combustion because we have to combust very lean to not melt our turbine. Thus we waste compressor work on compressing air which does no useful work (by being combusted) but only cools our turbine and keeps the temperature low enough so the turbine can handle.

The point is your turbine is driven by pressure difference, not temperature difference. The temperature difference helps increase the pressure difference

No, temperature difference is directly driving the pressure difference, which leads to the enthalpy change, which is what the turbine extracts useful work from.

The point of burning fuel is in one sense to drive increased pressure without further mechanical work and in another sense to add external energy from outside the closed mechanical loop so that your mechanical loop can drive itself via momentum recovery from the turbine. That’s why adding more turbine stages will make your turbine more mechanically efficient. But there’s a reason you don’t add more turbine stages to a jet engine. The mechanical efficiency driving the turbine comes at the expense of the air stream’s momentum (you are converting more linear air stream momentum into circular turbine momentum with more turbine stages), and presumably the point of a jet engine is the propulsion, not the turbine mechanical efficiency alone.

You are trying to describe a heat engine like a mechanical transmission.
The linear momentum is irrelevant, it can actually increase through the turbine stages yet still useful work is extracted since the enthalpy drops.
We do not limit turbine stages to "save momentum" (what you really mean is save enthalpy) but because they add weight, complexity, and require cooling air the compressor needs to provide.
If we could have 100 weightless turbine stages which require no cooling, we would for efficiency reasons.

In thermodynamics heat and work are the same thing. The gas is merely the transport medium.
Heat causes faster movement of molecules, which increases pressure, which does work on the turbine blades.
There is no "mechanical energy" in the gas which did not come directly from the heat of combustion.

(And before someone else sneers about heat enthalpy or Carnot efficiencies or what not, yes a jet engine is a “heat engine”, but it’s not heat by itself physically moving the turbine sustaining the engine cycle, it’s *mechanical energy from a gas medium converting heat into motion* physically moving the turbine. The mechanical motion efficiencies matter just as much as heat efficiencies in heat engines. A Brayton cycle doesn’t work without *gas compression*).

You cannot have a serious discussion about jet engines and ignore the parts of thermodynamics you do not like.
They are fundamental and required.

In fact if you understood carnot efficiencies, you would realise why your campfire analogy is so bad.
A campfire in fact does do useful work, but at a very low efficiency due to low density. That also untangles why we need compression, you are confused as to the why, it drives our carnot efficiency up.
We could use this to derive carnot efficiency ourselves if we untangled this properly.

If you understood the relationship between volumetric restrictions (diameter changes in the turbine) and pressure you would understand enthalpy, instead you ignore that and focus on pressure entirely which is grossly wrong and prevents understanding.

But isn't the Compressor outlet pressure (air mass) the same whether the temp is higher/lower? Because it uses the same compressor?


So for lower Compressor outlet temp, you have more heat budget (more fuel) to dump into the compressed air until it reaches the same TIT. That means more expansion during combustion, meaning higher final pressure & higher thrust

Does my logic make sense?

Insofar as your temperature design limit is concerned what you care about wrt temperature is agnostic to whether that heat comes from fuel burn or greater compression.

This is absolutely unhinged from a thermodynamics perspective. Heat from compression is energy you stole from the turbine, it is at best a zero sum move, in reality obviously a net loss due to entropy.
Yes the material of the turbine blades does not care where the temperature came from, it will melt either way, but the thrust will care.
Heat from the compressor is recycled energy that the turbine had to work to produce. Heat from fuel is what does the useful work in the first place.
You can easily game out the absurdity of this statement by driving it to an extreme.
Imagine an engine where we inject zero fuel and get all our heat from the compressor. If that was useful work, we would need no fuel, the compressor heat could drive the turbine and we have a perpetuum mobile.
Obviously we want compressor heat as low as possible. Billions are spend on achieving that by engineers.

If you have a system with lower compression ratio and thus lower compressor outlet heat of course you can dump more fuel into that air stream before hitting a designated TIT but relative to a system with higher compression ratio and thus higher compressor outlet heat the amount of work you do on the turbine is the same assuming same overall pressure reached at those same temperatures. It’s just that in the first system you are burning more fuel per cycle to achieve that work on the turbine than in the second system. This is why it makes no sense to describe more capacity to add heat to your air stream before hitting a TIT limit as a *superior* efficiency. Having to burn more fuel to reach the same pressure differential is not more efficient! In fact it’s the opposite!

Overall it’s the total pressure change from inlet to outlet driving your propulsion and total pressure change from combustor outlet to turbine inlet driving your turbine. If you burn less fuel to reach the same temperature limit that is by definition more fuel efficient. Another way to see this is that if you are more mechanically efficient at converting your rotations into compressed air, aka you are getting more air compression from the same amount of mechanical rotations, you need less fuel to keep your turbine going with the same momentum.

In summary *the total potential work delivered onto your turbine by your airstream is not defined by how much additional heat you dumped into the airstream in the combustor via fuel burn but the total pressure of the gas medium when it’s reached the turbine*. That gas medium literally does not care how you reached that pressure. It will do the same amount of work on the turbine so long as the pressure is the same.

You are confusing pressure with energy and efficiency with power.
The gas absolutely cares because you had to pay for that pressure.

I fully understand why the argument I make does not make sense to you.
You have demonstrated multiple times that you lack a fundamental understanding of the underlying physics, despite 2 people trying to explain it to you.
From your perspective our arguments cannot make any sense before you rectify that underlying understanding.
If I follow your logic and extrapolate it with thermodynamics, I end up at a perpeetum mobile. Your logic is obviously flawed.

Lower compression will always mean lower compression outlet temperature. Higher compression will always mean higher compressor outlet temp

Correct.

unless you’re employing active cooling of your compressor stages. Don’t think anyone does that

Oh it is done in industrial gas turbines, to increase efficiency. There the added weight and size of a cooler is not a big factor to consider.
It is obviously also done in cars with superchargers and turbochargers.

because the net effect of active cooling is drawing energy away from your compressed air and that kinda defeats the purpose of having a high energy air stream to move your turbine. In fact I think the net effect of cooling your compressor stage would be to lower the pressure entering the combustor, and lower pressure difference means less mechanical work done on the turbine. The point of the compressor and combustor both is injecting potential energy in your air stream so that your turbine can extract it to continue pushing the cycle.

Cooling increases efficiency for multiple reasons. It takes less mechanical energy to compress cool, dense air than hot, expanded air, thus cooling air between compressor stages increases compressor efficiency.
Cooler, denser air carries more oxygen into the combustor, so you can burn more fuel and thus generate significantly more power in the same size machine - which means less parasitic losses to drive the compressor in relation to fuel burn, i.e. higher ratio of power output for fuel input - i.e. higher efficiency.

The purpose is not "high heat" but high potential for work, so the purpose is not "defeated". The "compressibility" you gain more than makes up for the thermal energy loss by cooling the air.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
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You are trying to describe a heat engine like a mechanical transmission.
You are regurgitating a textbook without understanding the engineering analysis. Is the mechanical cycle being driven by heat? Of course. Is analyzing the heat equation describing the net work you get? No. It turns out a real life working engine involves a lot more mechanical steps outside the basic textbook description of a heat cycle. What are we interested in here, a generic textbook explanation of heat driven mechanical cycles or what net work we’re getting out of the cycle for a specific machine? Learn the difference between regurgitating book knowledge and actual engineering please. You talk like someone who learned your engineering to win internet arguments rather than to do useful engineering work.
 
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siegecrossbow

Field Marshall
Staff member
Super Moderator
Give it a rest will you? Since neither side is able to convince the other let’s just put a stop to the useless discussion about heat engines.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
A rocket, also part of the family of reaction mass engines you see me so unknowledgeable in, do not do any compression whatsoever. Only combustion. Yet they seem to produce plenty of propulsion.
I suppose your fan gets its mechanical energy by magic?
Pressure, not heat, is what does the mechanical work in a rocket buddy. Do you think your rocket is doing any propulsive work without squeezing gases? No.

My fan is of course getting the energy by combustion, but it’s not combustion doing the mechanical work I’m interested in. That would be the fan. And if my combustion cycle requires a reciprocal mechanical interaction to continue then actually my fan is also driving the combustion process. That’s why if my fan stalls my engine flames out. Or did you not know that about turbine engines? Did you think the combustion just runs itself and doesn’t require constant feed of air by some mechanical process or something? Perhaps you might want to review why the system is called a “cycle”. Do you know how they start a turbine engine in real life? There’s this auxiliary power unit, you see, and this auxiliary power unit has to drive the engine compressor to get air into the turbine before they can get ignition and then some sparky sparky boom boom magic happens. Who needs compressors to run a Brayton cycle am I right?

You’re stuck regurgitating talking points from a textbook because you haven’t actually grasped the mechanics being discussed here. Next time try to spend less time doing engineering for internet arguments and try doing more engineering for real life work.
 
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BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
If the WS-15 or 19 has a TIT around 1850 Kelvin, that is a massive success. That is basically CFM LEAP, F119, Trent 1000, GEnx equivalent temp. I guess the gauge is the F135 and its alleged 2250 Kelvin TIT. I flat out don't believe that the F135 runs that hot.

First of all, the hottest widebody engines like the Trent XWB and the coming GE9X are thought be running around 2000 K. Widebody engine TITs have been similar to those of fighter jet turbofans. Widebody engines accumulate much less thermal cycles than narrowbody engines because of the usual duration per flight. So they have been 100-150 Kelvin hotter on average. It would be really weird if a military turbofan went all the way to 2250 K a decade ago. I would like to remind people that no other P&W engine ever surpassed 1950 K too.

Second of all so many things about the F135 and the aircraft it is mounted on turned out to be nationalistic exaggerations. For example the 11+ TWR ratio turned out be not real. The claim for the weight of the F135 was always suspicious. There were no official numbers around. And the F136 (the GE-RR engine that was supposed to be a plug-n-play alternative) was reported to be around 2 tonnes. I believe a similar case is ongoing here. Especially if we look at the claims by P&W.

Their claim is the F135 being an "3600 Fahrenheit class" engine, which corresponds to 2250 K and is where that number came from. So even they are not really claiming that temprature. You couldn't sue them on that vague statement. 15+ years ago Jane's had reported that the F135's HPT run on gas just above 1649 C which is around 1920 K. The engine may have improved since then but 300+ would be huge jump. If you asked me P&W was marketing the engine in a misleading way. I bet "3600 Fahrenheit class" is something like 3400 F and it is the T4 (combustor outlet temp) rather than the T41 (right before entry to the first turbine rotor). The T4 is always significantly hotter. Or it is for something like "2 minutes maximum"

I wrote this about the F135 because I think its alleged TIT was not true and it was affecting the conversation in a negative way. 1850 K is not bad at all. Do we know which one of the T4 and T41 the Chinese studies usually report on?
 

sunnymaxi

Colonel
Registered Member
If the WS-15 or 19 has a TIT around 1850 Kelvin, that is a massive success. That is basically CFM LEAP, F119, Trent 1000, GEnx equivalent temp. I guess the gauge is the F135 and its alleged 2250 Kelvin TIT. I flat out don't believe that the F135 runs that hot.
well nobody knows the exact details like TIT of WS-15/WS-19. and this heated discussion is based on paper published in 2011. required specification of future medium category turbofan Engine.
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but all recent papers/patents constantly do mention 2000+K TIT.. few examples down below

1. recently STOVL WS-XX engine patent published in which TIT was 2200k.

2. CJ-1000A TIT said to be 1980 K as per the CCTV program called ''Moving China'' that is back in 2023.

3. another recent paper, allegedly related to WS-19 ''an exhaust flow around 2000 K at ~M1.7 flow velocity'' (page 04 of this thread and first post)

4. for example, this unknown project and specifications don't match with any current engine but look at turbine temperature. 2000k

2000k TIT new engine.jpg

we don't even know what is the design philosophy of these two WS-15/WS-19 Engines but most likely TIT is higher than 1850K considering all papers published in last few years also the industrialization of high end materials.
 
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gwel

New Member
Registered Member
we don't even know what is the design philosophy of these two WS-15/WS-19 Engines but most likely TIT is higher than 1850K considering all papers published in last few years also the industrialization of high end materials.

From both a performance and efficiency standpoint you want TIT to be as high as possible, unless that creates huge weight penalties. Until you hit maximum temperature the fuel can provide, more TIT always is great. There is no engine which is close to that number yet afaik. The only source for F135 TIT is one retired guy writing a pop sci magazine article in rather vague language. If P&W had such an advantage in their pocket their commercial airliner engines would dominate the market with breath-taking fuel economy. The reality is both GE and RR compete just fine in the market. In fact P&W seems to have the lowest TIT compared to the competition in the airliner space.

The only reasons why you would not want to push the TIT up in a design would be cost and lifetime/reliability. There isn't really a design optimisation point like flight regime that would benefit from lower TIT.
 
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