PLAN Naval Helicopter & ASW Capability II

Gloire_bb said:

LPD is huge logistic asset in this case. Somewhat large&vulnerable for comfort, but nevertheless extremely useful.
Taiwan itself is procuring one, for a reason.

All LHD functions in strait can be performed from mainland and isles: it's not especially far. Perhaps most importantly, mainland reliably won't get sunk.

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This.

weig2000 said:

Funny I thought about that too. Most people would have assumed so far that an invasion would naturally be launched from the west coast of TW, for obvious reasons. But with a carrier group or two, plus an amphibious strike group or two, it's also possible to launch the invasion from the east coast. At least, it makes the plan unpredictable and put the defense side from concentrating its forces in one or two directions.

With the assets (LHD, LPD, Z-20, LCAC) that PLAN is developing, this will become feasible in 10 - 15 years.

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Using eastern shore of Taiwan for invasion is unacceptable because you have to supply your forces there, and you can be sure that the Japanese and US Navy will very soon be there, coming from the East, so that's not the place where you want your supply train.

Gloire_bb said:

LHD is by no means optimal for this task...

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They sure ain't because the well deck won't be efficiently utilised in such mission profile, but else one would provide a platform that can serve as the ASW taskgroup's helicopter base and the C4ISR?

Unless, of course, that there are container ships in the state-owned shipping fleet has the suitable dimension and cruising speed that, with suitable modification after requisition (you know, with container-sized modules that pack all the necessary suites), can be pressed into service for such role, then the LHDs are free to be utilized in amphibious warfare which they're built for.

Now, the Z-20 if and when it become available the quota priority will certainly goes to the transport / air cav / air assault elements of the PLA, navalised ASW variant will be a development project after the baseline Z-20 green-lighted to full production, naturally that'd mean somewhere as early as 2030s when they bregin to test flight one. But of course, how fast it could be pursued will depend on how much resources the Chinese throw effort into it, especially the production of suitable turbine engines model.

abc123 said:

Using eastern shore of Taiwan for invasion is unacceptable because you have to supply your forces there, and you can be sure that the Japanese and US Navy will very soon be there, coming from the East, so that's not the place where you want your supply train.

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Geographically the Eastern Taiwan, while there are a few key military strongpoints along the stretch, by land-based transportation logistic sense ain't suitable as amphibious ops launchpads. Better to neutalise those installations and complexes there, leave the amphibious target concentrate at the north and southern parts.

MwRYum said:

Geographically the Eastern Taiwan, while there are a few key military strongpoints along the stretch, by land-based transportation logistic sense ain't suitable as amphibious ops launchpads. Better to neutalise those installations and complexes there, leave the amphibious target concentrate at the north and southern parts.

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I know. That's the additional reason why not use eastern shore.

MwRYum said:

They sure ain't because the well deck

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They aren't because ASW is not a turkey hunt.

LHD nowdays are considered(or pushed through) to be kind of light carriers with additional features.
But they're first and foremost landing ships with extensive aviation facilities. Large, expensive and vulnerable. Not just themselves, but very capable of compromising safety of whole ASW TF.

Well soon helicopter will be replaced with Heli Drone allowing it to be carried by type 56. More work still to be done but Avicopter should be able to finish development soon. From Henri K blog

Interestingly the video shot show tracking of Submarine periscope




At the last show in Zhuhai that took place in early November, the China Helicopter Research and Development Institute (CHRDI), the research firm specializing in the rotating wing of the AVIC group, presented its armed helicopter drone called AV500W.

This military variant is derived from another helicidone of the CHRDI, the AV500, itself developed from a U8 drone designed by the same institute. According to the official description, the civil version of AV500W weighs a maximum of 470 kg on take-off and can carry up to 160 kg of payloads, including 120 kg of equipment, including an optronic ball, SAR radar and other devices Communication.

The drone is able to reach 4,000 meters of altitude and fly at a cruising speed of 120 km / h, with a maximum speed of 170 km / h. It is controllable by radio link in a radius between 50 and 200 kilometers, and has a range of 6 hours in flight with 80 kg of cargo, or 8 hours for 55 kg.

The CHRDI took two years to develop, and the AV500W armed version was upgraded to carry specially developed ammunition such as 6-kg and 10-kg Air-Ground missiles to attack targets on Range of 5 kilometers.

Its flight control system is designed to align with the requirements of 2-3 level self-propelled flight set by the US Army. The drone can thus take off and land in full autonomy, modify and re-plan its route online, and automatically return to the starting point if the control link is interrupted.

The China Rescue and Salvage (CRS) of the Chinese Ministry of Transport and a division of the Chinese navy have put an option to purchase the civil version AV500. The latter has already carried out test flights at the Alxa league in Inner Mongolia and then near Nan'ao Island to check the drone's ability to fly at high altitudes and in maritime conditions under a wind of Level 7 on the Beaufort scale (50 to 61 km / h).

As for the armed version AV500W, two Saudi delegations, ADASI of the Ministry of Defense of the United Arab Emirates, as well as the intelligence services of Namibia and Malawi, all showed great interest in the craft and approached Of the CATIC for technical details, during the Zhuhai Fair. It is unclear at this time whether they will follow up on this still developing program.


Foreign delegations in front of drone helicopter AV500W


The case to follow.

Henri K.

abc123 said:

Using eastern shore of Taiwan for invasion is unacceptable because you have to supply your forces there, and you can be sure that the Japanese and US Navy will very soon be there, coming from the East, so that's not the place where you want your supply train.

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Well, it's not going to be the primary focus, and it should not be deploying a large number of land forces. I understand the geographical challenges and also the main population centers are on the west side of the island. The primary goals would be to take some strategic targets and the surprise factor. The main invasion forces would still be from the west shore.

In any case, I'm not saying it now, but really 10 -15 years down the road where both the amphibious strike groups and the carrier groups can operate there relatively safely. The area to the east of Taiwan is not too far from Chinese mainland and is within the reach of land-based aircraft and missiles. It'll be better for China to hold/contend the area to deter/fight against foreign intervention to begin with.

Just want to play out some scenarios in which PLAN can develop and deploy their amphibious assets.

Gloire_bb said:

LPD is huge logistic asset in this case. Somewhat large&vulnerable for comfort, but nevertheless extremely useful.
Taiwan itself is procuring one, for a reason.

All LHD functions in strait can be performed from mainland and isles: it's not especially far. Perhaps most importantly, mainland reliably won't get sunk.

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What makes you think PLAN LHD operations will be limited to the straits during a war scenario?

Even for LPDs, operating in the straits is not a fantastic idea.

All this big ships are big targets reasoning is just self serving and circular. Take that to its logical conclusion and your just end up building a massive FAC swarm.

Yes, LHDs are high value assets, but then so are LPDs and carriers. You don't not really want to invest in such large ships until you have all the other assets in place to be able to adequately defend them.

Even 054A FFGs, 052D DDGs and 055 CGs are very high value assets. Are they also too big to risk? Should the entire PLAN just stay in port during a war to avoid getting sunk?

Notice a general trend in PLAN ship developments? They are getting big and more valuable.

Its really two sides of the same coin. Generally, the bigger and higher value an asset, the more capabilities of brings to the table. Loosing one would hurt, but having those in the fleet makes it materially less likely an enemy would be able to kill any of your ships, which your ships have a much higher chance of killing them.

In that way, LHDs are like an investment (more so than LPDs and more like carriers). They cost a lot of money and represents a lot of eggs in one basket, but they also bring significant new capabilities to the table that other assets could not provide as effectively or at all.

The biggest advantages LHDs brings to a PLAN fleet are its helicopters, which can perfectly complement the PLAN's large and growing ASW 056 fleet, thereby adding significant value to all those 056s, as well as materially boosting the ASW capabilities of the PLAN fleet, and adding a layer of ASW protecting for all components of the fleet from the 056s themselves upwards.

Other than ASW, an LHD's airwing can also mount more traditional helicopter-borne air assaults and/or deploy wings of gunships to hunt and destroy enemy forces and defensive installations.

We need to remember that the first shots of Desert Storm were fired by AH64s, who snuck in close and cleared out Iraqi early warning radar to help F117s penetrate Iraqi air defences.

Taiwan's traditional defensive posture is to face a threat from their west, meaning their high value assets are placed closer to the east coast.

Attack helicopters and air inserted special forces teams would pose a serious threat to those assets. At a minimal, it would force Taiwan to redeploy forces to guard against potential attack.

Having ASW screens east of Taiwan will protect all PLA landing assets behind them from enemy sub attack. That brings a lot of piece of mind.

plawolf said:

The biggest advantages LHDs brings to a PLAN fleet are its helicopters, which can perfectly complement the PLAN's large and growing ASW 056 fleet, thereby adding significant value to all those 056s, as well as materially boosting the ASW capabilities of the PLAN fleet, and adding a layer of ASW protecting for all components of the fleet from the 056s themselves upwards.

Other than ASW, an LHD's airwing can also mount more traditional helicopter-borne air assaults and/or deploy wings of gunships to hunt and destroy enemy forces and defensive installations.

We need to remember that the first shots of Desert Storm were fired by AH64s, who snuck in close and cleared out Iraqi early warning radar to help F117s penetrate Iraqi air defences.

Taiwan's traditional defensive posture is to face a threat from their west, meaning their high value assets are placed closer to the east coast.

Attack helicopters and air inserted special forces teams would pose a serious threat to those assets. At a minimal, it would force Taiwan to redeploy forces to guard against potential attack.

Having ASW screens east of Taiwan will protect all PLA landing assets behind them from enemy sub attack. That brings a lot of piece of mind.

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Per it's nature, LHDs will have to be used in it's ASW role close to Chinese mainland. If used far from mainland that means that you have sacrificed an LHD for no good reason or that your navy is so strong that no enemy can put your LHDs in jeopardy.

So, if they will be used close to shore ( frex. for sterilising of Taiwan Strait ), why just don't use land bases?

Also, about striking on enemy radars, well, attack helicopters launched from the mainland are much more stealthy than those launched from 25-40 000 t behemoth in middle of Taiwan Strait...

Having ASW screens fom an LHD east of Taiwan is something that PLAN willl not see for a long time, at least 10-15 years- and that's a whole different ballgame.

During next say 10-15 years, all that PLAN can expect is that they are able to hold on long enough to conquer Taiwan and make it not really worthy to conquer back by being able to inflict unacceptable damage. During that time keep USN and Japanese Navy at bay with their DF-21D, air attacks and danger of conventional submarines. With frigates, land based ASW helicopters and Type 056 securing internal ring ( say 100-200 km from shore ) from enemy submarines.

With inevitable US blockade being something that will be dealt later- somehow.