PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Of course it will. If you move to a mansion and buy more Ferarris your insurance, gas, etc. will go up as well.
Unless of course you think PLA is somehow immune to basic economic laws.
Your mistake is to believe that US economic dysfunction is a law of nature. It isn't, it's a historical circumstance particular to the US. China is indeed immune to the sorts of "economic laws" that plague the US.

Of course operational costs will increase as PLAN tonnage goes up (and goes up significantly when China starts pumping out nuclear supercarriers), but those increases will remain well under control and readily manageable by the Chinese economy because of its efficiency.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Why is the Japanese invasion of Taiwan rarely talked about as a example of how an invasion of Taiwan would look like? There's lots of superficial similarities plus they invaded Taiwan. It could be a good barometer of any successful invasion of the island.

The conflict took around 6 months and was then followed by years of counterinsurgency.
It was ages ago. Even if the modern US + modern Imperial Japan might not have as long ranged attack options as modern China, they have much much longer fighting range than ww1 imperial Japan lol

Besides, I don't think China was seriously trying to defend Taiwan at the time, it was more busy with civil unrest/civil war.

An invasion of Taiwan in modern times would look very different because this time, China has a lot of long range fires, ships and other defenses.

Japan itself is also in severe danger of being striked. Ukraine has more AD potential than Japan, and Russians have still slowly worked them down. China has way more firepower than Russia, so it's likely that even if the invasion in Taiwan gains some degree of success, the home islands will eventually be ruined, with major Japanese cities sooner or later resembling Mariupol and Artemovsk.

Without support from US bases/Japanese mainland, the invasion force in Taiwan would be cut off from resupply and eventually starve, along with any local separatist forces.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Of course it will. If you move to a mansion and buy more Ferarris your insurance, gas, etc. will go up as well.
Unless of course you think PLA is somehow immune to basic economic laws.

The Chinese military doesn't overuse its equipment like the US which gets into wars and is fixated on forward military presence across the globe.
So we can expect operations and maintenance costs to be comparatively lower for China.

Plus the big naval and air maintenance costs come from the mid-life update which typically happens 15 years in, and then afterwards as the equipment really starts to age.

So given that Chinese military procurement only really got going after 2015, we won't see this start to impact until after 2030.
Until then, it will be mostly new equipment.
 

FriedButter

Major
Registered Member
Japan itself is also in severe danger of being striked. Ukraine has more AD potential than Japan, and Russians have still slowly worked them down. China has way more firepower than Russia, so it's likely that even if the invasion in Taiwan gains some degree of success, the home islands will eventually be ruined, with major Japanese cities sooner or later resembling Mariupol and Artemovsk.

More likely to resemble Kiev with the strikes on military assets, military and intelligence buildings rather than it becoming Mariupol or Artemvovsk. The only way for Japanese cities to become that damaged is either the PLA is urban fighting for control or WW2 style bombing and China isn’t going to do either. Munitions would be better spent on turning ROC fortifications and strongholds into rubble.
 

sr338

New Member
Registered Member
It was ages ago. Even if the modern US + modern Imperial Japan might not have as long ranged attack options as modern China, they have much much longer fighting range than ww1 imperial Japan lol

Besides, I don't think China was seriously trying to defend Taiwan at the time, it was more busy with civil unrest/civil war.

An invasion of Taiwan in modern times would look very different because this time, China has a lot of long range fires, ships and other defenses.

Japan itself is also in severe danger of being striked. Ukraine has more AD potential than Japan, and Russians have still slowly worked them down. China has way more firepower than Russia, so it's likely that even if the invasion in Taiwan gains some degree of success, the home islands will eventually be ruined, with major Japanese cities sooner or later resembling Mariupol and Artemovsk.

Without support from US bases/Japanese mainland, the invasion force in Taiwan would be cut off from resupply and eventually starve, along with any local separatist forces.
You forgot that China technically has the right to base troops on Japan according to the Potsdam Declaration. Japan is not allowed to have any other territories beside the 4 main islands, as PRC doesn't recognize the Treaty of San Francisco.
China can demand Ryukyu independence or asking to base troops on Japan. China actually has a lot of cards to plays before Taiwan.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
The Chinese military doesn't overuse its equipment like the US which gets into wars and is fixated on forward military presence across the globe.
So we can expect operations and maintenance costs to be comparatively lower for China.

Plus the big naval and air maintenance costs come from the mid-life update which typically happens 15 years in, and then afterwards as the equipment really starts to age.

So given that Chinese military procurement only really got going after 2015, we won't see this start to impact until after 2030.
Until then, it will be mostly new equipment.
Wasnt that's exactly what I said? China's operating cost is miniscule compare to the US for those and others reasons.
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
Sure, they use cost plus contracts or fixed margins. Then the MIC raises their expenses (real or perceived) so they get more profit. Perhaps that toilet seat in the Gerald Ford carrier will be made of carbon composites instead of plastic. That is just one example.
Does anyone know why the bathroom sinks are carbon fibre on the Ford?
Speaking of the toilets, apparently they don't work properly
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

King ZhaoXiang

New Member
Registered Member
The 2030s is much more speculative, but we can make a reasonable guess as to the military balance in 2030.
We can see that the Chinese Air Force and Navy are procuring more big-ticket platforms that the US is.
So we can reasonably assume Chinese procurement of munitions and other systems will be comparable, given these tend to be a lot less expensive.

So here's my guess on the 2030 Chinese military

Air Force
1000 J-20. Based on 100+ annually, as per Patchwork and observed serial numbers
600 Flanker airframes (J-11/J-15/J-16)
600 J-10 airframes
400+ H-6 and JH-7 strike aircraft
100+ Y-20U tankers. There are about 20 Y-20 airframes produced annually.

Munitions and Missiles
We can see that the US plans on buying the following in the next 6 years
a) 4000 JASSM missiles
b) 700 HIMARS launch trucks
c) 106K GMLRS missiles @ $220K each

a) The Chinese equivalent to the JAASM is the DF-17, which is comparable in range and cost
So let's say China buys just 2000 DF-17, which is only half the US plan of 4000 missiles

b) Those DF-17 would be launched from 500 Launch Trucks, in comparison to the 700 HIMARS the US is buying

c) China doesn't need 100K GMLRS as these are expensive short range missiles for a ground war.
Instead, they could buy low-cost munitions like 100K JDAM glide bombs and another 100K Shaheed-136 piston-engine powered cruise missiles. This would only come to $4 Billion, which is only a quarter of what the US is spending on GMLRS

Then if you look at the geography of the Western Pacific, all of Japan is within 1300km of the Chinese mainland. That would be within range of the DF-17, Shaheed, J-20 and also the Flanker airframes. There are also 150+ airbases in China versus approx 10 in Japan. So when you look at Chinese military capabilities, you have the recipe for outright Chinese air superiority over Japan.

Japan can then be blockaded by air and sea indefinitely. In addition, you could allocate say 100K munitions for targets in Japan. Japan is a small but densely populated island which has to import all of its natural resources, including 30% of its food. In comparison, China is the same size as the continental USA and shares land borders with many countries for trade, so China can be broadly self-sufficient. So we can see Japan would collapse in weeks/months in a modern-day version of Operation Starvation. This scenario still applies even if the US military gets involved.

We can extend this scenario to South Korea and Philippines (if required), as there is more than enough spare Chinese military capability.
As for Taiwan, they already face this strategic situation today

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There's very little that the US can do in this scenario, as the US will be reliant on a small number of submarines, carriers and bombers operating from a handful of distant bases in the 2nd Island Chain and beyond. And those few bases would be under intermittent attack.

This still applies even if they US starts fielding larger numbers of submarines, NGAD, long-range stealth bombers or long-range hypersonic missiles for example after 2030.

From 2030-2040, we could see China buy another 1000 J-20s and its NGAD successor for example. And if NGAD really does have long range, then we could see Chinese NGAD conducting air-superiority operations deep in the Pacific and over Guam for example. There are other Chinese military capabilities as well. By 2040, I would expect a minimum of 6 Chinese carriers and a maximum of 10 carriers if relations with the USA are bad.

@BoraTas

Yes, talk of a "decade of concern" doesn't really make sense.

1. At the granular level, the analysis above goes into some detail as to what is happening

2. At a medium level, if you model the "stockpile" of annual weapons procurement and assume a typical 30 year service life, you can see the Chinese stockpile doubling by 2030 and then increasing another 50% from 2030-2035. In comparison, the US is pretty much flat.

3. At a high-level, you get into how China already has a larger economy than the US in terms of actual output when measured by PPP. Furthermore China should continue to grow faster, which will support even more military spending. And from a requirements perspective, historically the world's largest trading nation builds the largest Navy to protect its global trade interests and investments.

So we are looking at US military superiority dropping away every year for the next 20+ years, just on the current size of the Chinese economy and current military spending levels.

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So what does this mean?

For Japan, the way out of this security dilemma is good relations with China. It is pointless for Japan to have an alliance with a distant USA that can provide neither military security nor economic prosperity. A similar calculation applies to many other countries in Asia.

For the USA, they have to publicly acknowledge that a war with China is not an option. Otherwise we'll see a larger and faster Chinese military buildup to "persuade" the USA.

This is actually an underestimate !
 

King ZhaoXiang

New Member
Registered Member
In addition, a sea skimmer would only be visible on radar within 10-15 km. The RCS reduction has to be sufficient such that it isn't detectable by radar even within essentially visual range.

Depend on the height of the radars !

055 has much taller X band radar than the 052D's S band radar and can thus detect sea skimers at range beyond 30 km !
 

King ZhaoXiang

New Member
Registered Member
That's just incorrect. The US has vastly bloated costs because it has a political system riven with corruption and its industrial economy has been entirely hollowed out. It's not just procurement costs that are low in China because of its vast and efficient industrial economy, although the Chinese MIC certainly benefits greatly from that, all costs are low because of how China is structured and governed.

Yes, US defense companies are all private and they go for 20% profit margins at the minimum !!

As a result, the US defense budge is actually shrinking every year due to extreme high inflation !
 
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